Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

This is just to put in perspective that Frazier despite his talent and great left hook started letting himself go and it showed in his later ring performances. Frazier lacked Marciano's discipline outside of the ring.

Frazier going into the Foreman fight. Frazier foolishly underestimated Foreman and seen him as another Terry Daniels or Ron Stander, which is why he showed up as poorly conditioned as he did.

"Had he watched Foreman fight or studied films of him? Wasn't that important? Frazier shook his head almost contemptuously. "I'm concerned about preparing myself," he said. "What help is it to scout another man? Even sparring partners don't work like your opponent in the fight. So I work on my strengths. Let the other guy do the best he can." He folded his hands on his stomach. "I met George in New York. He said he was ready. In Omaha. He said he was ready. In New Orleans. He said he was ready. Saw him last Monday. He said he was ready. Well. I'm ready. You better believe it."

The weigh-in took place in the huge gym where Foreman earlier had been lambasting the heavy bag. In the distance old women in green smocks mopped the floor, heads down, as if the odd ritual was something beyond understanding. It is odd. Traditionally, the weigh-in exists for bouts in which there are certain weight specifications. For heavyweights, of course, that distinction does not exist. Still, the suspense was there. Foreman weighed 217½, Frazier 214, almost nine pounds over what he weighed for the Ali fight.
https://www.si.com/vault/1973/02/05/617632/you-better-believe-it

Frazier going into the Daniels fight. Frazier came in way overweight, but blamed the scales instead of taking responsibility.

"I'm not a lazy, shortcut kind of guy," he said from the depths of the tub and presumably his soul. "My philosophy is work, hard work. That's all I know. Everybody wants something, but nobody works hard enough to get it. Me, I've got my title, and I like it. But I have to work hard to hold it."

At 215½ pounds he was 10½ pounds heavier than he was last March when he defeated Muhammad Ali and at least seven pounds over the weight he personally assigned himself for this inconsequential bout.

Like many men who have been fat boys, Frazier is a weight watcher and he was clearly disturbed by the extra pounds, blaming them, in fact, on the Louisiana State Athletic Commission scales. He was 213 on the hotel bathroom scales that very morning, he said, and he suspected that even these were inaccurate. It all seemed a plot to embarrass him.
"They had them on the ring mat," he said, "and you can't get scales to balance on a soft mat. Either that or I drank a lot of water."

But in his new philosophical humor, Frazier was prepared to accept, albeit reluctantly, the evidence of unwanted poundage. "I've been grinding away in other fights to get down to 203, 204. Now I've decided to be more comfortable." "He is getting older and bigger," says Manager Yank Durham. Frazier turned 28 three days before the fight.
https://www.si.com/vault/1972/01/24/565377/backtoschool-time-for-terry-daniels

Ken Norton also underestimated Foreman and didn't take Foreman seriously and came in at his heaviest and his results were very similar to Frazier when he fought Foreman.

"Ken Norton, the seventh-ranked heavyweight, was talking about Foreman. "He stinks. He's going to need a bunch of luck. He's got a hard jab, but he misses it and goes off balance. And it's so hard that he can't do anything off it, like hook. And as for his big punches, you can pack a lunch before they get there. He'll last five rounds."
https://www.si.com/vault/1973/02/05/617632/you-better-believe-it

Dick Sadler and Bundini talking about Marciano.

"Dick Sadler and Bundini began talking about the hardest punches they had ever seen thrown. Both of them agreed that one of them was Rocky Marciano's hit on Ezzard Charles in their last fight—a blow, as Bundini described it, that landed under "the goozle pipe...which swole up so the neck and chin became the same." Throughout this Foreman remained quiet, watching Moore put on the tape.
https://www.si.com/vault/1973/02/05/617632/you-better-believe-it

 

Norton and frazier were friends. Before he fought Foreman, Frazier was the reigning undefeated champ who had previously beaten Ali (the same Ali who was Norton's best opponent and went 1-1 with him before the Foreman fight). If Norton underestimated Foreman despite all these facts that was his fault and incredibly foolish of him. Its very hard to believe. Seems more like pre fight trash talk. Norton was an intelligent, well spoken man and a veteran fighter, I highly doubt he believed those words despite the context I just laid out.

Anyway, none of this changes the fact Norton was a skilled 6'3 212 pound fighter, prime, only had 2 losses and was ranked 7th in the world. Those are better credentials than 99% of Rocky's opponents!

Had Norton said he was scared of Foreman you wouldnt hesitate to use that to your advantage say the win has less meaning. In other words, your agenda is to avoid giving Foreman credit for a big win wether the opponent overestimated foreman, was in fear of him, or was neutral. You complain about people pointing out the FACT Rocky's best opponents were past their physical prime, were smaller and under 200 lbs, and had multiple losses. You boost them up and make them out to be h2h ATG monsters to boost Rocky's credentials and here you are digging up all the information you can find to diminish Foreman's best wins.

If thats not hypocrisy I dont know what is!

 

Well i am one of those fobbing off the Young kd but certainly haven't zeroed in on any Marciano performances or moments.

 

Is there such a thing tho as somone with power "much more remarkable than Foreman's"? There would be a trail of utter destruction behind them, and i mean destruction.

 

You can’t be serious? I merely said Frazier and Norton underestimated Foreman and didn’t bother properly preparing and got destroyed for their trouble. Foreman still deserves full credit, since it isn’t his fault if his opponent doesn’t show up in top form or underestimated him.

I was just making a point that it’s laughable to use Frazier showing up in poor shape and getting hammered as an example of what would happen to Marciano when Marciano never underestimated his opponents or showed up 10+ lbs overweight.

Also, at heavyweight ability not weight wins fights. Peralta and Levi Forte were both sub 200 lb fighters and gave Foreman very tough fights. Ali even consulted Forte on how to beat Foreman and it was Fore that developed the rope-a-dope based on his fight with Foreman for Ali.

“At the end of the 1969 fight against Foreman, when the decision was not yet announced, Foreman muttered to Forte “I’m never fighting you again”. And he didn’t. But Levi Forte later gave some advice to Mohammad Ali before The Rumble in the Jungle: “He doesn’t have stamina, keep him punching and he’ll get tired”. Ali replied, “Heh, I’ll keep on the rope… and he’ll be the dope”
https://michaelscomments.wordpress.com/2008/08/28/meet-levi-forte-the-boxer-george-foreman-feared/

“Forte came up with the rope-a-dope tactic after having faced George Foreman himself and going the distance.”

“The tactic involves covering up, leaning back against the ropes and allow the opponent to become exhausted during the first part of the fight and then unloading on the opponent in the later rounds.”
https://miami.cbslocal.com/2018/12/...of-boxer-who-came-up-with-rope-a-dope-tactic/

 

Levi Forte lost 10-0 on all three scorecards and was dropped in the second round. It was Foreman's 12th fight and Forte was all of 1 pound under 200.

Peralta has already been heavily addressed.

The intellectual dishonesty in here is spreading like wild fire. The lengths some people will go to are staggering.

 

So Marciano is gonna sit on the ropes?
Seems like a good idea.........

 

I feel now as though I should run through my old Rock tapes again....after all of these varied arguments I'm indeed wondering if he ever mixed up his strategies. All I remember is a persistent, stalking style. Which Foreman would cheer...it was his easiest opponent.

That said, though George proved his heart (mostly against Lyle and in his comeback), the Rock had a heart as big as his body. That always means something important in a fight imo.

 

From March 8th 1971 till Jan73 Frazier defended against 2 unranked third raters.Avoiding an Ali rematch.
Durham's plan was for Frazier to fight Foreman before he improved.
Ali went into the Foreman fight intending to dance but found himself winded early on, so he retreated to the ropes ,it wasn't a predetermined plan, but one that was improvised on the night.There are plenty of primary sourced quotes
confirming this.

As a fat old man in his 40's George had no problem going the distance with young top class fighters ,without once sitting down on his stool.His problem wasn't one of lack of stamina it was a lack of pacing.

 

you cant keep using the "intellectual dishonesty card". It simply dosnt apply here. If sub 200 pounders didn't last the distance with George and if someone who punched less hard than Foreman had not actually knocked george out (in his prime) then you might have a unanimous argument. But you dont. So theres no trying to use rank shutdown tactics in the face of such evidence that actually happened. Everything is honest here.

 

From now on I will use the abbreviation ID when addressing your posts that fit the term intellectual dishonesty.
Posts such as less than 200lbs,sub 200 pounders, referring to men weighing 199lbs.
You had the front to accuse me of pedantry when I corrected you on Ezzard Charles recently yet consistently use spin.Your rep is blown here chum,and not before time!

 

But it simply dosnt apply. It will only advertise the lunacy of social justice warrior tactics being used to shut down a fantasy fight debate.

 

Your delusion is that having convinced yourself of your authenticity you believe you convince others.
You've been accused of ID so many times,and by entirely different posters,yet it never occurs to you they are right and you are wrong? That there is real substance in their complaint?

Guess what, there is!

 

No it’s the same bunch of easily offended types who want to outlaw opposing views that don’t jive with their firm held beliefs.

I don’t want to outlaw, over rule anything. Im not necessarily offering a different opinion, just valid points that might support an unbeaten fighter not being such the easy victim you lot think he is.

By the way ID sounds ludicrous.

 

You obviously have no idea what it means LOL