Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

I can guarantee joe Louis was not less strong when he weighed more at 37. However he was obviously more of a complete boxer and all round athlete at 21 this should be obvious.
Look at Lennox Lewis, kilthchos etc old Foreman (the champ in question) and how strong, if not stronger, they were when they were older! No brainer

 

There were fighters who made a nuisance of themselves crowding Foreman. It could be done,

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This fight is intresting in round 3,4 and 5.
In the last round of the fight Guido finally works out how to stay close enough to Foreman but is already cut. He does back George up. Guido is 29lb lighter too.

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Here Qawi with a bandaged knee does crowd and land lots of right hands.

 

Hmm... I see a smaller fighter getting walked down and methodically outgunned by an old guy who realized he had nothing to fear in return and was trying to kick off the rust and find his range.

 

Like joe Louis

 

I don´t think he was on the best Mercer level at that point, especially if you take Mercers chin into account. Where does this strength discussion come from? As I told, if Louis is exhausted or just didn´t want to waste energy in a pushing game, there is no relevance for this topic.

The core problem with Louis is the same than Alis or Tysons, with the difference that aging Ali could adept due to beeing a defensive tall long-range fighter: Their prime was a exceptionalism of speed, reflexes, timing and coordination. You might even throw stamina out of the equation and still max. their H2H ability at a certain time early in fights. So these were Tysons and Louis core elements, particularly in a ambidextrous way.

The argument is simple: If you loose these abilitys, what else stays? Tyson became a Tua-like fighter without stamina, and Louis had a jab and a little nonexplosive power. He just didn´t look special to me anymore. In the Charles fight too, he just was diminished in anything that made Louis a great speed two-handed fighter of the past.

 

So now apparently a 37 year old shopworn gunshy boxer (coming off a layoff) who beat unimpressive C level fighters was physically stronger than his prime 20 year old self who was on a win streak knocking out ex champions.

And we're gonna use Muhammad Qawi, a boxer that fought nothing like Marciano at all, in a fight where he lost every round and was battered by a much slower fat old Foreman (which has nothing to do with a younger Foreman). There was a thread not too long ago where people pointed this out to you and you admitted Qawi and Rocky were totally different and here you are using this bogus example to support your argument again after its been debunked!

And you wonder why people accuse you of being intellectually dishonest!

I'm done. This is my response:

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you said nobody crowded Foreman in 81 fights, I bring two examples of guys who crowded Marciano, one who backed him up giving away 29lb, and all you can say is that they fought nothing like Marciano, That George was older then?

What do you want, somebody who fought exactly like Marciano? Somebody beating Foreman?

George only has to be crowded for it to be relevant for your claim he never got crowded in 81 fights.

Tell me, if George is himself is older and the opponent C level, why that dosnt even things up to show a comparison? Imagination is required. But not much.

 

LOL Choklab is putting up some stiff resistance in this thread. Interesting debate.

 

Yeah, I’m dealing with the same people that believe Joe Louis was weaker at 213lb than he was at 196lb even though for that to be true theyre also happy to accept Evander Holyfield was stronger aged 23 against Dwight Muhammad Qawi than aged 34 against Mike Tyson...So it’s all quite easy really.

 

So Joe Louis followed a strict scientific weight program and diet to get from 196 to 213?

Lets outline below what Holyfield went thru to put in on these extra pounds. Let me know what parts of this Joe Louis followed so as to still be ridiculously strong and functional in his mid to late 30's. Feel free to put forward Joe's program.

https://www.livestrong.com/article/369069-evander-holyfield-and-weight-training/

Former world heavyweight champion Evander Holyfield is considered a small heavyweight compared with some of the behemoths that populate the division, dating from the early 1990s. Holyfield had to build up his 190-lb. cruiserweight body with a carefully targeted weight-training program to get to 215 lbs., so he could successfully compete against men who weighed close to 240 or 250. Holyfield had to gain the extra weight without sacrificing speed, agility and flexibility.


History
Holyfield became a professional boxer in November 1984 as a 175 lb. light-heavyweight. His strength and physical maturity saw him matched against tough opponents from the beginning of his career; however, the powerful, muscular and physically maturing young man had difficulties staying within the light-heavyweight weight limit. He promptly moved up to the 190 lb. cruiserweight class and in only his twelfth professional fight won his first world title in July 1986 against Dwight Quawi.

Making of a Heavyweight
Holyfield had his first fight as a heavyweight in July 1988. Interviewed by Pat Putnam of "Sports Illustrated" in April 1988, Holyfield's training adviser, Lou Duva, said Holyfield's training regime, designed to turn him into a genuine heavyweight, would be supervised by orthopedic surgeon Richard Calvo, who ran a sports medicine clinic in Texas, with fitness trainer Tim Hallmark in charge of strength and conditioning.


Traning and Nutrition
Interviewed in the Dec. 6, 1988, edition of "The New York Times," Hallmark outlined Holyfield's training strategy: Holyfield did a two-hour early morning strength-training session three times a week using free weights and resistance machines. Hallmark emphasized the use of heavy weights for explosive movements, with rest periods between sets, as opposed to circuit-style exercises Holyfield did as a cruiserweight. Holyfield ate a breakfast high in protein and complex carbs before and after his morning sessions, rested for a few hours and did boxing drills. Then he had a high-protein and complex carbs lunch with vegetables, and a rest period followed by conditioning and cardio work.

Growth
Holyfield, according to the interview in "The New York Times," ate four to five times a day as a heavyweight instead of the two meals as a cruiserweight. Hallmark noted a change in Holyfield's body structure: a 2-inch growth of his neck to 19 inches; much bigger chest, shoulders, quadriceps and buttocks; and an expected body weight of between 208 and 210 lbs. in his next heavyweight fight.


Hatfield's Influence
Former power lifting champion Frederic Hatfield, Ph.D., was brought in to supervise Holyfield's strength and conditioning work prior to his heavyweight world title fight against James "Buster" Douglas in 1990, according to Sportsci.org. With former bodybuilding world champion and eight-time "Mr. Olympia" Lee Haney monitoring his progress, Hatfield introduced a modified bodybuilding and strength program to increase Holyfield's body mass from 208 lbs. to close to 220 lbs.

Holyfield and Mr. Olympia
Holyfield's weight training program consisted of easy, moderate and high-intensity sessions, says Sportsci.org. Utilizing a split routine, chest workouts included flat bench press, dumbbell bench press and incline dumbbell bench press. Shoulder workouts included seated dumbbell press, dumbbell front raises and lateral raises. Back workouts included bent-over rows, back extensions and lat pull-downs. Arm work included EZ curls, dumbbell curls, close grip bench press, bar-dips and triceps push-downs. Leg workouts included safety squats, keystone dead-lifts, walking lunges, glute-ham raises, twisting squats and leg curls

 

You can guarantee.lol

At 21 I was 168lbs at 37 188lbs and weaker.You don't know WTF you are talking about !
N.B.Louis said" the last time he felt like his old self,had complete control ,energy, and power was in the Mauriello fight .He called it his last great fight ."
That was in September 1946.He fought Marciano in October 1951.
Over 5 years later! GTFA!

 

We are dealing with a clown. Nobody mentioned Holyfield who went through a spartan regime of training to gain weight Louis just got old!ID,ID,ID!

 

Yeah Louis had the same sort or regime,he also had two nice rest periods of 4 years and3 months from
1942 -1946 where he didnt have an actual fight apart from 53 seconds with Johnny Davis 3-3-0
Then another 2 years and 3 months from 1948 -1950 and all the time he was getting stronger!
Choklab belongs in a circus , because he is a clown!

 

True on all counts lol

 

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