Marciano vs Foreman... What Can The Rock Do?

And this is where i disagree. Even a mere jab thrown in light shadow boxing is going to chip away at a fighter's strength and the longevity of his muscles.

Let's be objective here: Holyfield was one of the most hard working and superbly conditioned fighters ever, yet after a mere 33 fights (not that long even by today's standards) and aged 33 (not very old by modern athletics) he was called washed up and told to retire after being bashed around by Bowe in their 3rd fight. It didnt help that he later dropped a decision to underdog Moore. People said he was nuts for signing to fight Tyson. And despite his amazing performance in said Tyson fight, we can objecticely see that the wear and rest from all the intense training and ring wars was catching up. He was lucky it wasnt peak tyson but credit to him for an amazing performance. Kind of like how despite winning the epic duel in manilla, people knew for years Ali was past it and not the same fighter. His own doctor Pacheco and religious advisor Elijah Muhammad called for him to retire.

I just dont get how you can possibly think adding another 100 bouts on top of his regular "official" 69 matches and his amateur career can leave him "just as strong as ever". It defies basic biology and common sense.

Louis being ranked that high tells me how weak the era was, not how amazing an old Louis wad. The "contenders" he beat would not be amazing world beaters in other competitive eras (such as the 70's, 90's or even Louis' own era). When he stepped up in class against the much smaller charles and marciano he lost badly both times. I dont think thats a coincidence.

In terms of skill and muscle memory, obviously since he was "active" according to you (including the army bouts), but that further chipped away at his athletic biological clock. Reflexes diminished, timing down, and only 1 KO in his 9 figbts before Rocky! And one more thing: he was adding old man weight from simply being older. The 213 wasnt him getting jacked from intense weight lifting, strength training, or PEDs, unless you have evidence otherwise?

 

Everyone who is anyone knows that Rocky gets pounded like a tough steak in this fight. He has nothing to cope with a prime Foreman. He lacks the tools, the skill and above all the athletic repository.

And again, using a frail old Louis to support this argument is beyond willful ignorance. It goes to the level of religious fervor. Louis, old and shot, didn't even have a right hand with which to fend off Marciano. Foreman will have both a left and a right....

 

The thing is the strength of Joe Louis means less than nothing because he fought nothing like Foreman and nor did he use his "strength" anything like the same way. Foreman is possibly the biggest freak strength wise the division has ever seen. His strength goes way beyond his poundage.

 

Marciano was my first boxing hero when I was a kid (I was 6 when he died) and the media coverage when he died and the anecdotes of his victories, particularly his ability to overcome adversity, were the stuff of legend and certainly made him a legend in my eyes (he still is to this day a legend in my eyes) . BUT - I believe it is stretching credibility to its extreme to believe that with his style, he could overcome the disadvantages in height, weight, reach, physical strength and sheer wrecking ball power he would face in a fight with the Foreman who crushed Norton and Frazier.

To be able to damage Foreman in any way Marciano would have to walk through the pugilistic equivalent of trying to cross a road in a thunderstorm without an umbrella and not getting wet - impossible. Marciano would have to walk through the sh*tstorm of the early round Foreman blitzkrieg and be a) conscious and b) to not have taken too much punishment to be able to function before having any hope of using his attributes of courage, stamina and his own considerable power.

Using Peralta's performance against a 15 fight Foreman to try to promote Marciano's chances of victory in a fight with Foreman are tenuous at the very least - it's more likely a case of disregarding all the available evidence to promote a person's blind idolatry of Marciano.

I would fancy Marciano to defeat an 180 pound equivalent of Foreman & rate Marciano P4P as the greater fighter of the two, but that's not the issue here. Suggesting that 185 Marciano would beat a 220-225 peak Foreman is fanciful in the extreme.

Would anybody fancy a 147 Sugaar Ray Robinson to beat Marciano? Of course not - yet, that's what's being asked of Marciano here.

 

in a pushing sense at 213 Joe Louis was as strong as most other 213 pound contenders. Yes or no?

so you think an active athlete, successful in boxing, actually gets physically weaker (in a pushing sense) as he gets heavier? Fighters slow down yes. But they keep their strength. They know how to use their weight in a clinch in order to rest too.

correct. joe Louis fought nothing like George Foreman. And yes, Foreman was the single strongest champion in a boxing specific sense. I agree. The part where Louis gets brought in for comparison is that he was still as strong as most 213 contenders yet Rocky backed him up.

Also nobody has convincingly explained why they think Louis’s was EVEN stronger at 21 years of age than he was twenty pounds heavier.

 

At 37 and shopworn after having nearly 200 fights? Compared to someone 10 9r even 5 years younger with less miles ob the clock? No.

Compared to boxers who are 213 lbs of shredded muscle like Liston? Of course not. Ive already explained this to you. 2 men can weigh exactly the same and one is much stronger than the other, especially if theyre shopworn and gained old man weight. Louis adding 5-10 lbs of old man flab and steak dinner weight didn't suddenly make him 2x stronger than his younger self.

They get weaker if youre talking about a fighter in his very last fight after nearly 200 bouts and we see on camera they just arent the same. ****ing Louis himself said his legs were gone in the Marciano fight and he neglected his right hand. Legs are actually the most important vodt parts for pushing and if youre gunshy about throwing a right hand how the hell do you keep a volume puncher off of you?

If you acknowledge that there's no comparison between foreman and has been Louis stop making the dumbass comparisons already! Last time im gonna ask you.

 

Prime early 70s Foreman by early rounds KO.

Similar to Frazier/Foreman I

 

No they don’t. They lose lose timing, they get tired. But they remain physically strong men. I’ve boxed. I know this first hand.

 

What was the point of you asking me and then telling me im wrong?

Anyway this is pointless because you're a troll, you've got an obvious agenda, and you constantly contradict yourself and shift the goal post when you get called out.

 

I can understand the styles nightmare for Marciano but people please cut the height weight thing out it’s a poor argument. How on Earth did Tyson, Frazier, Langford, and Marciano himself compete? May as well say he can’t beat anyone. Height and weight is important for some fighters but if you have a great chin great power and a style suitable to get inside the height and weight argument becomes useless. And yes it’s rare for a fighter to have all those things but some do.

 

It gets oversold but it is a factor, and here it is a particularly damning factor. Manny Steward himself dismissed Rocky's chances against moderns with the simple retort "Too small". Tyson (who was quite a bit larger than Marciano) could compete at the top for a time because he had the off-setting attributes of speed and balance. Even Holyfield remarked later that Tyson was amazing because he was SO small (and still weighed 30 pounds more than the Rock). Marciano didn't have a compensatory factor. He was just a swing for the fences guy with a ton of heart and stamina and not much else.. Sure, he had a few tricks to lessen his vulnerability but the vulnerability was still there in spades.

 

Rocky backing up an old Joe Louis is of little to no consequence here due to my previous comments. Nacking up old Joe and backing up George are worlds apart.

At the end of the day it doesn't matter in this debate.

 

Besides, I don't think Joe was backing up because Rocky was too strong for him. It was more a matter of Rocky pressuring and crowding him and Joe likely wanting a little more space. Inside, timing and reactions are paramount, and at Joe's age, he clearly isn't going to be as good there as he once was, so he's going to naturally try and back up to give him space to throw. Who knows, but I don't see it as any kind of definitive proof Rocky was stronger than Louis, which means f all when we're talking about Foreman here.

 

I hear you. I certainly don’t think Rocky if fighting HW today would weigh 188. If he chose to do so it would be over 200. We prob disagree on how he’d do after. His compensatory factors include stamina (something no Hw has today), power, chin (ok some questions to that but have to go with what we have and it’s at the least respectable at best great), style, and corner. The only real question mark for me is can his chin take a shot from a skilled 250 pounder? That’s a fair question but if it’s as good as Tyson’s chin which I think it is he would be fine today. Prob a shorter career but fine. Also there are plenty of people that would disagree w Manny

 

Why do you think it's as good as Tyson's chin? I'd say it's a level or two below. Tyson took monster shots from some of the hardest punching heavies ever (Smith, Bruno, Ruddock and Lewis) without going down while Rocky was floored by Moore.

Tyson could be worn down, but for walking through a single very hard punch he was up there with anyone. I have seen nothing that would suggest that Rocky could take the best of huge punchers like Lewis, Bruno et al.