JAMES J JEFFRIES V EARNIE SHAVERS ?

Why wouldn't Jeffries make adjustments? I'd suggest someone who repeatedly came on strong late was capable of making adjustments.

I also see no reason to think the question was asking about a novice Jeffries, but probably about him in his prime.

 

A "novice"? When he fought Corbett the 1st time Jeff was the champion and had made 2 defenses!

That same Jeff got utterly outclassed and tried doing the same sloppy punch over and over for 20 rounds.

I am aware that Jeff later improved on this performance but can people stop with the intellectual dishonesty?

Its not enough that ive already admitted the improved Jeff might beat Shavers. It seems the only thing that will satisfy some people is if you say all old time fighters were flawless and any criticism means youre a hating modernist who hasnt done any research.

 

That isn't what happened in that fight. It's just wrong.

Corbett was winning, but Jeffries was regularly landing left and right to the body, and landed some lefts and rights to the head, including dropping Corbett with a right to the ear in the 19th, Jeffries landed a left hook and body shots in the last before getting the KO with a left hook to the head.

Corbett dodged or blocked a lot of Jeffries head shots, but Jeffries landed more and more as it went on
https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...ett&y=16&x=15&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1

 

To be fair, Jeffries was the only heavyweight champion, who had to learn on the job!

He found himself contesting the heavyweight little, with little more than a dozen professional fights.

He then went after the best qualified challengers, despite having an arm injury!

That injury almost forced his retirement, but he came back, and clobbered his top contenders.

From there, the "hot hand theory" kicked in!

 

Thanks. Some posters just say things that are not quite right, so I need to set the record straight.

 

Which durable fighter did Shavers KO? I see problem. Jeffries was a puncher too. He floored every man he fought, save his 1910 comeback fight and had quite a few face first ten counts.

Shavers was Ko'd often by guys who didn't as hard as Jeffries, so he's not lasting long.

While I think Shavers was a big puncher, he had the many problems that Tommy Morrison did, and fighter you don't think much of.

They are a bad chin, and questionable stamina. While Shavers was more well rounded on offense than Morrison, he cut quite a bit.

Jeffries did not rely on being durable alone. He was a puncher, fairly skilled with quickness in his hands and feet and super strong with amazing stamina to go rounds.

 

Ruhlin was the only one of that three with any pretensions to class or being prime..Having read a few books on both Fitzsimmons and Jeffries I'm not convinced Fitz had his gloves loaded.
a.Fitz suffered from bad hands and wearing electric? tape would have put them in danger of being busted irreparably, in fact he usually requested permission to wear extra gauze to protect his hands.
b.Jeffries, after the Armstrong fight in which he damaged his hand,never wore hand wraps again, bare fists in those little mitts they wore then would be just as lethal as hands that were wrapped in whatever imo
.
c.Jeffries examined Fitz's hands before they gloved up,if Fitz was wearing electric tape,which you say makes the fist, "as hard as a rock," why didn't Jeffries detect this and object to it?
I've been thinking a bit more about this fight and in particular the Shavers v Quarry fight in which Shavers was bombed out early, having had his jaw broken.
From what I have read Quarry was a more versatile puncher than Jeffries ,and he threw in combination.Jeffries fought with his left half extended ,described as like the prow of a ship,he carried both it and his right hand low at around waist level,leaning to his right in a half crouch, he had no guard as we think of it in modern terms,relying on his left shoulder to shield his chin.He looks vulnerable to right hands on film,Shavers best punch,but since I think Jeffries probably hit as hard as Quarry if not as frequently,I must give him a good chance of stopping Shavers. Playing devil's advocate somewhat it should be noted that Jeffries body punching was usually responsible for his wins.His lefts to the stomach took all the fight out of Corbett,Fitz,and Ruhlin,but Fitz was no more than170lbs,Corbett in the 180's and only Ruhlin 199lbs.Shavers was ko'd 7 times, but I don't think he was ever ko'd by a body shot ,or even floored by one ,and he was much thicker in the body than both Fitz and Corbett. Jeffries was used to fighting over longer distances this is true, but he fought at a slower pace geared for the longer haul. I'm still going for a toss up fight.
On the issue of cuts Jeffries was cut over the left eye in the first Ruhlin fight he also had his nose bloodied and his mouth cut in the 5th rd ,in the 4th round in which he floored Ruhlin he took several rights to the head which were described as staggering him and making him unsteady on his legs.In the 6th round Ruhlin again cut Jeffries left eye with a right hand causing it to swell up another right is described as ,"making Jeffries see stars".Both men were young fighters not at the polished stage but this fight did indicate that Jeff was susceptible to right hands,imo. I doubt Ruhlin's power was anything like as lethal as Shavers.
One hundred and sixty five pounds Joe Choynski bloodied Jeffries face and closed his left eye,,I should think Choynski was a more accurate puncher than Shavers and faster too.
Jeffries was cut on the forehead in the 1st Fitzsimmons fight,in the 5th round a straight left opened a gash just above his left eye and it is described as bleeding copiously.
So Jeffries did cut and get marked up in several fights therefore the honours are about even as far as cuts are concerned imo .
ps.There are conflicting reports as to whether Jeffries actually knocked down Bob Armstrong in the tenth and last round no two papers seem to agree ,several said he fell in avoiding a blow,others said he slipped.

Just one more thing, photos of Jeffries next to Corbett and Fitz indicate he was shorter than Corbett and around the same size as Fitz,of course these are not conclusive,but I'm staying with six feet as his height.

 

Yes he does. Fifteen lbs. while at least as lean as shavers & one & a half inches. Two if they rounded the latter's height up.

 

I posted both Jeffries and Shavers weights for their major fights and they disprove this statement.I can't for the life of me understand while you are still insisting on this.

Sharkey 1. 205
Sharkey 2. 210
Corbett 1. 218
Corbett 2. 210
Fitz 1. 206
Fitz 2. 219
Ruhlin 2. 218

Shavers
Norton 210
Holmes 1.210
Holmes 2.211
Ali 211.25

 

I must take issue with the underlined.
Jeffries won the title in his14th fight, Corbett won it in his13th.
When they first met Jeffries had fought 16 times Corbett 14.For their second bout Corbett had 16 fights under his belt Jeffries 20.
So Jeffries was always in front as far as fights fought are concerned.
Jeffries fought the second Sharkey fight with an injured left arm but Sharkey dislocated his own left arm in the fight too, and fractured a rib late in the fight.
None of this gives us a clearer picture as to who wins a fight between Jeffries and Shavers ,but it does set the record straight I think.

 

https://chroniclingamerica.loc.gov/...bett&y=4&x=17&dateFilterType=yearRange&page=1
This report states had Corbett not been ko'd he would have won on points. Academic yes,as he was ko'd but it does indicate that barring a ko Corbett had an insurmountable lead.

 

Corbett was winning, but that is very different than what GCC claimed, that "Jeff got utterly outclassed and tried doing the same sloppy punch over and over for 20 rounds.", while that shows Jeffries had not only dropped Corbett, but that he had been outlanding him for the last 6 rounds. It's not like he just caught Corbett with a random punch, Corbett had a lead but the tide had turned, Jeffries was upping the pace and penetrating Corbett's defence more and more. Jeffries was using a variety of punches, body punching early to tire Corbett, before going for the big head shots later.

 

He also had more fights than Corbett at all stages of their respective careers.

 

I don't say Jeffries was utterly outclassed ,but barring the ko Corbett would have won a decision.Can we agree on this?

 

Yes, I don't disagree with that.