JAMES J JEFFRIES V EARNIE SHAVERS ?

Apologies, I got your post mixed with someone else. I tend to just glance at profile pictures rather than read the username.

There's no real substancial difference in you calling him a liar, vs just confused, both are about undermining the credibility of what he says. If he said h had over 350 fights, and included exhibitions, then that seems to be about right so doesn't undermine his credibility.

Have you got a source for him claiming to be drugged? I know Jack Munroe claimed that, but I've never seen Fitz claim that.

I'm not sure why you'd expect we'd have a record of a 15 year old fighting in New Zealand in the 1870's, the records are awful at that time for top contenders. I might be true, it might not, that we don't have a record doesn't undermine his claim.

 

Source for his claim of being drugged is Gilbert Odd ,author of The Fighting Blacksmith page 165. We are done now.

 

Rainer,

Fitz was considered a deadly puncher. Indeed he killed three men from boxing in professional fights and exhibitions. Historian Nat Fleisher named Fitzsimmons the hardest hitter and best KO puncher over Dempsey and Louis. Would you put Mercado in that boat?

You have to understand in Fitz time they used very light gloves, which amplified the power of the blow, similar to the difference say between boxing and those very light MMA gloves. Jeffries took blows ( without a mouth guard ) from Fitz, and Sharkey in 2 fights each and from Choynski ( 84 combined rounds ) without being in danger of going down. So it did not matter if Sharkey was 185 pounds or Fitzsimmons was 170 pounds, they really hit hard. Harder than the 200-215 pound guys Jeffries fought In Jackson, Ruhlin, Munroe, or Johnson

No less authority than Ring Magazine views Fitz, Jeffries, and Sharkey as all time pound for pound punchers on their top 100 punchers list. Jeffries rates in the 32 on the list, which is impressive as it's done in a pound for pound sense and he was 215-220 pounds. People who think Jeffries wasn't a puncher are not familiar with him. He was a patient fighter, unlikely say Marciano who upped the ante when he needed to. But to learn this requires news research as there is limited film on Jeffries. He hit so hard, they had a special 300-pound heavy bag just for him. I have seen a rare clip of Jeffries hitting the heavy bag, he jolts it like Sonny Liston. ( Who was rated 15h on the all-time puncher list )

Below is the list I'm talking about:

[url]http://boxrec.com/media/index.php/The_100_Greatest_Punchers_of_All-Time[/url]!

I'm not saying Shavers could not hit. He was an amazing puncher. I'm saying Jeffries' chin was most ceritnaly tested. Hopefully the above is now clarified and understood.

IMO, Shavers would need to land a lot to stop Jeffries, but the reverse is not true. Jeffries being an all-time body puncher would quickly sap the limited reserves that Shaver's has, or could clip him early with a good left hook.

 

People shrink in height as they age. It's true.

 

That only applies to Jeffries but not to Choynski???? People do not lose that much height we went down this road already on the this and Jeffries was not that old yet he was not malnutritional and crippled from years of hard labor living a hard life

 

If you say so....personally I think Tua finds himself in the same spot. Probably a consistent top 5 contender who would lose to guys like Charles and Walcott and if he managed to get a shot apart from them Rocky would also beat him IMO.

Personally I rate Rocky around 10-11 and not super high H2H either, so I don’t feel like a part of the Rockistador crowd.

I just don’t get the fascination with guys like Tua Williams Lyle and Shavers who are known for great power, but more for the ability to not get it done at the highest level.

Just my $0.02

 

I think the best version of Tua blasts out the versions of Walcott and Charles that Marciano faced, and even easier Marciano himself. The former two were too aged, and had lost a step or two, especially in later rounds. They were both on the precipice of their careers, making a last stand as it were before all their faculties collapsed. Walcott chose the wiser route of retiring. Charles piddled on as a sub .500 fighter, likely causing his later condition.

Marciano just finds a bad stylistic match-up here. Tua had a Gibraltar-like chin while the Rock was felled by a small, geriatric 200 pounder and a similarly geriatric glorified light heavy. Simply put, Rocky got hit. A lot. The only guy I remember lasting a sustained attack from a Prime Tua (and again we are supposing prime) was Ibeabuchi, a 235 pound Man Mountain... and according to some it cost him what remained of his sanity.

Sorry, that's how I find it and I calls it like I sees it.

 

?I may have heard you say that or something similar before? I think Walcott brings him more trouble than Byrd and wins a sumilar decision..but since we are talking about putting him in that era 15 rds is likely not the best place for him and turns a comfortable 12 rd decision into a wide one over 15

 

The version that Marciano faced was on his last legs... literally. Pundits called it out before the fight, that Walcott's legs would be the determining factor. And lo and behold, Walcott was walking in postholes in the latter rounds, slowed down enough for Marciano to catch him coming off the ropes.

Tua would finish the job much quicker, more power, better boxing skill, better balance, bigger, stronger man.

And by the by, I wouldn't call a 2001 Tua exactly prime. You might want to look back to 96 or 97.

 

So...should I start his prime after the loss to Ike and end it prior to losing to Lewis?

Should I be impressed by stoppages against Rahman and Masksev after he was getting outboxed all fight against those greats? I probably shouldn’t have written that, as I actually like Rahman

 

Should I be impressed by stopages against Walcott and Charles after he was getting outboxed all fight against those (heavyweight) greats?

Seriously, this is a head to head thread. And head to head, the bar was raised by a factor of many in the heavyweight division between the immediate post-War era and the post-modern or even modern time.

 

Just one man died after boxing Fitzsimmons ,Con O Riordan and there is a lot of controversy over what caused his death. On this occasion he had been a sparring partner for Fitzsimmons for just 3 weeks but they had known each other for 8 years. Fitz entered the ring for an exhibition with him on November16th1894 in Syracuse NY.
O Riordan had previously been a sparring partner for John L Sullivan and Peter Jackson.
Fitzsimmons knocked O Riordan down in the first with a light punch to the jaw.
O Riordan then retired but later passed out.He did not regain consciousness even after two hypodermic syringes and an electric battery were used on him.O Riordan had been drinking heavily before the bout ,he died when the performance was over .
Fitz was arrested that evening ,he blamed O Riordan's death on his drinking insisting he had only landed a light punch and that O Riordan had dies from an apoplectic fit. The cause of death was listed as blood clots to the brain ,Fitz was bailed for$10,000.he was later cleared of manslaughter.Fitz paid all the funeral expenses.
By the way the most commonly used gloves of the time were 5 ounces. Your list is the Ring's 2003 one and includes all weights.It has Jeffries over Lennox Lewis ,do you think that is accurate?
Fleischer compiled his list,he died in1972 and never saw
Lewis,Foreman,Wlad,Cooney,Tua,Shavers,Lyle ,Tyson,Ruddock etc.
At least five of those would make any current list.

" 200-215 pound guys Jeffries fought In Jackson, Ruhlin, Munroe, or Johnson ."

ps Jackson was a washed up has been who was under 200lbs.
Ruhlin was199.5lbs.
Munroe was a portly third rater under 215lbs
Johnson beat Jeffries convincingly and he was 208lbs