Is it untrue that Liston beat the undisputed heavyweight champion who was 2 inches taller than Marciano? Marciano weighed 184 against Louis. Patterson weighed 189 in the first fight and 194.5 in the second fight. Louis was 37. Patterson was 27. Louis' best win in the previous 3 years- 36 year old Lee Savold (totally washed up). Patterson had KO'd Johannson twice in his previous 3 fights. Johannson was 27 and a much better fighter than Savold or Brion. Patterson was also a better fighter than Marciano was. Let's say it is true (I don't know much about that fight). Norton broke Ali's jaw but Liston, Foreman, Frazier, Lyle, Patterson, Shavers, Cooper couldn't. Liston fought Marshall 12 months into his pro career. You can hit someone on the jaw and knock them out cold without breaking their jaw. It happens all the time. If you are breathing through your mouth and your jaw is relaxed, it wouldn't take much force to break that jaw, especially if it's an uppercut. It doesn't have to do with force of the blow but rather the mechanics of the human jaw. There's a reason boxers are advised to keep their jaws clenched when getting hit. Also, Liston never broke his jaw again in a pro fight. Perhaps he learned something that night. Styles make fights. Liston quit on his stool against Muhammad Ali, one of the most elusive boxers that ever lived (prime Ali). Is Marciano going to float like a butterfly and sting like a bee? Who did Marciano ever frustrate? Liston couldn't hit Ali and he was completely outclassed. Duran quit in the middle of a round. He didn't even wait for the round to end. But did Duran quit when he was in a fire-fight? Liston didn't quit against Leotis Martin where he was taking a beating at the age of 40 (50 really). You gotta be a bit delusional to think Marciano is gonna make Liston quit. Ali also made Frazier quit on his stool. Frazier was a proud champion and one of the toughest fighters of all time. I don't know about heavyweight champion but Jose Napoles was stopped due to a cut against Backus. This is irrelevant tbh. I'm not counting on a cut, it'll be a KO. Elder abuse. You could have just went with 5 questions lol. Westphal landed a few punches, the fight lasted less than 2 minutes. Liston knocked him out cold with the first right hand he landed. This was the first time Westphal had been down in his entire career (24-8-3). This was Liston's 34th fight. In Marciano's 34th fight, he fought Art Henri. Henri's record: 13-15-1. "Henri frequently outfought Marciano with left hooks in the first three rounds, and landed four nifty uppercuts at close range in round three."- Courtesy of boxrec. Marciano stopped Henri in the 9th round. Henri had been stopped 4 times before, twice in the 2nd round. Henri weighed 3 lbs less than Maricano and 11 lbs less than Westphal. Why does that matter? Internet has given us a better understanding of fighter's careers. Plenty of fighters were under-appreciated in the past but we have learned more about them in recent years with the help of internet. The Ring Magazine rankings over the years: A great example would be Harry Greb. Greb wasn't considered the #1 p4p fighter in the 60s or 70s. He wasn't even considered the greatest middleweight back then. He was ranked #3 in 1975 and 1994 by Ring Magazine. But in 2001, they started rating him at #1 and it hasn't changed since. Are they wrong? Should he really be ranked below Monzon, Ketchel or Robinson? Ketchel was ranked as the greatest middleweight in 1975. In 2004, he dropped down to #8. In 1994, Barney Ross was ranked #4 welterweight by The Ring. In 2008, he had dropped down to #15. In 1994, McGovern was ranked #2 featherweight. In 2002, he was #11. How about Moore and Charles at light heavyweight? In 1975, greatest light-heavyweight was Philadelphia Jack O'Brien according to The Ring. Moore was #2 and Charles wasn't top 10. In 2002, O'Brien wasn't even top 20 and Charles was #1. Sounds about right. I have a few rankings from the 90s if you're interested: Herbert Goldman, 1997 1. Muhammad Ali 2. Joe Louis 3. Sonny Liston 4. Mike Tyson 5. Larry Holmes 6. Jack Johnson 7. Jack Dempsey 8. George Foreman 9. Rocky Marciano 10. Joe Frazier The Ring Magazine, 1998 1. Muhammad Ali 2. Joe Louis 3. Evander Holyfield 4. George Foreman 5. Larry Holmes 6. Rocky Marciano 7. Sonny Liston (not that far apart) 8. Joe Frazier 9. Jack Johnson 10. Jack Dempsey Tracy Callis, 1999 1. Jim Jeffries 2. Jack Johnson 3. Jack Dempsey 4. Joe Louis 5. Muhammad Ali 6. Gene Tunney 7. Jim Corbett 8. Sonny Liston 9. Rocky Marciano 10. Larry Holmes I don't agree with these rankings but people did rank Liston higher than Marciano in the 90s. And you don't have to be ranked above someone to be able to beat them. People have different criteria when it comes to ranking fighters. If its head to head ability, Liston will always be ranked above Marciano. If it's resume, then those rankings are pretty useless for fantasy fights. Edit: resumes are not useless. But styles make fights. Frazier's resume didn't save him against Foreman. Nope and nope. Were the two men that dropped Marciano greater punchers than Liston? Walcott and Moore are not even close to Liston in terms of power. Remember, we're talking about a prime Liston here. If we assume that Liston actually was born in 1930, he was 35 years old when he fought Ali the second time and almost 40 when he was stopped by Leotis Martin. Ali was 206 lbs and Martin was 200 when they stopped Liston. Both were bigger than Rocky. Liston wasn't dropped a single time in 12 years (37 fights) before Ali floored him with that "Phantom Punch". Liston-Ali I was also the first time Liston had ever been cut in his career. You can't question Liston's durability. He was also a lot bigger than the fighters Marciano faced (the ones that matter). How many great punchers did Marciano face in his career? Was anyone even remotely close to a prime Liston? Forget that, was anyone close to a Cleveland Williams? Moore was a great puncher at 175. Charles was a good puncher at 175. Walcott was a good puncher but not even close to Liston. Walcott might be the biggest puncher Marciano fought. How does he compare to Cleveland Williams? Or Floyd Patterson? He doesn't. Marciano was floored by Walcott and Moore. One punch knockdown. Walcott dropped him in round 1 and Moore in round 2. Compare Moore & Walcott to Williams & Patterson. Liston was never floored when he fought Williams/Patterson/Valdes. Williams was undoubtedly a bigger puncher than Moore/Walcott. Liston took everything Williams threw at him, didn't he? Liston was a highly durable fighter in his prime. Liston was a bigger puncher than Marciano. If Walcott and Moore could hurt Marciano, Liston could stop him. You have to bring up Ali II/Martin fights to make a case for Rocky. You know Liston was past his prime in those fights. Liston fought a prime Ali while he himself was past his prime. Marciano was the opposite. He was in his prime fighting guys who were past their prime. If you're gonna bring up Ali-Liston II, I wanna see a fight where Marciano was 35. Marciano retired at the age of 32. This is a prime vs prime matchup. Marciano fought for a total of 8 years. Liston had been fighting for 11 years when he fought Ali the first time. Ali would've schooled a prime Marciano. I can name plenty of fighters that would've gone 49-0 if they were in Rocky's place. Marciano never fought a legit puncher in his entire career. He never fought another swarmer, never fought a slugger and never fought someone with a great jab. And never fought a great fighter who was in his prime. Joe Frazier would've gone 49-0 if he was in Rocky's place. Mike Tyson, Sonny Liston, Evander Holyfield, George Foreman, Muhammad Ali, Joe Louis (lol), Larry Holmes etc. I don't understand how anyone can think Marciano beats Liston. Very tough fighter, huge heart, highly durable but not good enough. Rocky wasn't a great boxer and he was too small. Big puncher for light-heavyweights and old, chinny heavyweights but not a big puncher next to Liston. Liston was just as durable as Marciano too. This is one of the easiest picks I can think of tbh.
This is rather amusing. Your response to deciding if it is true or not that Rocky beat a #1 contender who was similar in size to Sonny Liston is that it dosnt matter because Rocky was two inches shorter than Floyd Patterson?.. that tickled me. No wonder. You are the golden feather. This is absolutely a minority view. yes all those big guys... couldn’t break Ali’s jaw, just big Ken Norton. What has that got to do with disproving that a 180 pound guy breaking Sonny Listons jaw? Really this is getting ridiculous.. yes about that. Do you think That Sonny quitting in a fight (as champion) where he took less punishment than most fighters who quit is really a good sign? Sonny who possibly had already cheated with the substance that blinded Ali was getting beat. He was beginning to get beat up. Then he quit. Thankyou for accepting this. Westphal was a horrible mismatched opponent. Unranked blond guy. And even he landed a few punches. Thankyou. yes we had to wait all the way until the 1990s for Sonny to leapfrog over guys that had always rated above him in all time lists. What do you think it was that Sonny did after his death that improved his rating? was anyone close to Cleveland Williams? You do realise that Williams is famous for being the biggest puncher who never knocked out a good fighter. I doubt you can even name his best knockout win. Dear oh dear...
well when someone gives me apples for oranges I do the same _ Walcott was a very capable fighter when he fought Marciano, Louis and Charles, he was erratic but on a good night he could beat anyone, he had good nights against Louis, Charles and Marciano and others...Liston also fought Marshall in his 15th fight and it went 10 rounds Liston weighed 203lbs Marshall was 179lbs. Marshall Bert Whitehurst also survived Liston for 10 rds in 2 fights with Liston at 212lbs and Whitehurst at 190lbs in the last fight but Archie Moore stopped Whitehurst 2X and a month before Liston fought him. does any of this matter? not really but the 2 quits against Ali hurt Liston's legasy just like his 2 best wins over Patterson lift him. -Floyd Patterson was the best fighter Liston beat!
You want me to confirm for you that Rocky beat a 137 year old Joe Louis. Louis was similar in size to Sonny Liston? What are you smoking? That's like saying Ali was similar in size to Lennox Lewis. Because Ali did weigh 236 when he fought Berbick. Lewis weighed 227 when he stopped Ruddock. Joe Louis had a 76" reach, Liston had an 84" reach. That's an 8" difference. Quite similar. Louis weighed 197 lbs when he won the world title. He weighed 199 in his 18th title defence (Billy Conn). The two fights are exactly 4 years apart. That was prime Joe Louis. He weighed 213 lbs against Marciano. Liston was about 215 in his prime. Edit: In-shape 215 vs old & out of shape 215. Was Floyd not taller than Rocky? He had a longer reach than Rocky (3 inches) and he was heavier than Rocky. What tickled me is the fact that this is the best you can come up with. After Joe Louis, your best options are Johnny Shkor, Bill Wilson etc. The only thing these men have in common with Liston is their weight. Did you know that it took Marciano 8 rounds to get rid of a washed up Joe Louis? It took Liston one round to stop an excellent swarmer in Floyd Patterson. Patterson would've had a picnic if he fought the Joe Louis Rocky fought. It is if you're a Rocky Marciano fan. Floyd Patterson was a more skilled fighter. Ask any impartial boxing fan. Not talking about who was greater, who was more skilled? Have you seen Patterson vs Moore? That's a 21 year old Patterson dominating a legend. This was a year after Moore-Marciano. You know this isn't going well for you. "Really this is getting ridiculous.." Is it though? Is it really getting ridiculous? Or did it already get ridiculous when you compared the corpse of Joe Louis to prime Sonny Liston? Ken Norton wasn't as big a puncher as Frazier, Foreman, Liston etc. Somehow he broke Ali's jaw when those guys couldn't. I thought it was pretty obvious what I was implying. Just because Marshall broke Liston's jaw, it doesn't mean everyone will. No one else did. It's actually pretty stupid. Ezzard Charles split open Marciano's nose. Liston will turn him into Voldemort. There. Shut up now. Well, Liston injured his shoulder. That's the reason he quit. Liston was taken to St. Francis Hospital following the fight and emerged hours later with six stitches under his left eye and his left arm in a sling. Eight doctors consulted and came to the conclusion that he had torn a shoulder muscle and the injury was debilitating. Dr. Alexander Robbins said, "There is no doubt in my mind that the fight should have been stopped." Did you read about Marciano-Henri? You think Henri was a contender? The guy was 11-15 and he was landing plenty on Rocky. Here's another one for you. This is a fella named Willis 'Red' Applegate. His record, an outstanding one, 11 victories and 14 defeats. "This was a bruising, crowd-pleasing battle. Marciano won handily enough but failed to even knock down his opponent, who had fought only twice in the previous two years. Applegate's best round was the third, which the referee also took from Marciano because of a low punch. Red landed plenty of good punches, typically in the early parts of rounds, but Marciano almost always came back later to take the play away." Bernie Reynolds: Reynolds gave a very good account of himself. He clearly outfought Marciano in round one. Gino Buonvino: Buonvino landed a terrific right to the jaw midway through the first round, one of the hardest punches Rocky ever stopped. Gino landed another powerful right in the second, but his decision to punch it out with Marciano was fatal to his chances. Rocky arguably lost his 21st fight to Ted Lowry. Lowry's record in the previous 20 fights: 3-15-2. Lowry's record in his next 20 bouts: 4-15-1. Look at how dominant Liston was 10 fights into his career. Maybe he was simply overlooked in the past. I gave you examples of great fighters who's stock went up with time. Marciano might've been overrated all those years. Why do people rank Marciano lower today than they did before? I think it all changed in 1985 when Holmes said that Rocky Marciano couldn't carry his jockstrap. He was right after all. Ernie Terrell. Eat that. In your face. Only one man stopped Terrell in his prime. Terrell was stopped one other time, that was in his last fight ever. That was a washed up Terrell who had come out of retirement (3 year layoff). Terrell went the distance against Cleveland Williams (rematch), Zora Folley, Eddie Machen, Doug Jones, George Chuvalo, Muhammad Ali, Manuel Ramos. Not a single knockdown over 90 rounds against these fighters. Terrell was a very good fighter and a durable one. After getting knocked out by Williams, Terrell didn't lose another fight for 5 years (Ali). Terrell was a top 3 contender for 4 consecutive years (#1 for 2 years). Alex Miteff was a top 10 contender when Williams knocked him out (5th round). Williams KO'd Roger Rischer in the 3rd round. Rischer went undefeated the next year and made it top 10 (#8) by beating Henry Cooper. Williams knocked out Alonzo Johnson. Johnson was a decent fighter, held wins over Willie Pastrano, Nino Valdes and he had never been KO'd before. Williams KO'd him in 1. Johnson went the distance against Valdes, Folley, Tony Anthony, Machen, Lavorante, Ali. Williams doesn't have a deep resume. I never said he was a great fighter. I said he was a great puncher. There aren't many durable fighters Shavers KO'd. Would you question his KO power? Shavers best KOs are over washed up Ellis and Norton. Williams would have more quality KOs had he gotten more quality fights. Cleveland Williams lost twice at the age of 20. He had a record of 33-2 at the time. For the next 12 years, Williams went 34-3-1. He lost a split decision to Terrell and was stopped twice by Liston. Drew against #2 contender Eddie Machen. Cleveland Williams was a highly avoided fighter at the time. He fought Liston when no one wanted to go near Liston. Twice. Just in case you tell me Williams was being protected or something. Liston vs Williams 1- Associated Press, April 16, 1959: Two tall, hard-hitting heavyweights who had trouble finding opponents met each other in the ring here Wednesday night. Williams was a big puncher. The same way George Foreman was a big puncher crushing all those tomato cans. He didn't become a big puncher all of a sudden when he KO'd Frazier. Mike Tyson was a big puncher when he was beating bums coming up. It's the same thing with Deontay Wilder today. He can KO bums but everyone knows he got power. Even to knockout mediocre fighters, you must have power. At the end of 1963, Williams was ranked #4 contender. He was 60-5 with 50 KOs (30 within 3 rounds). He was shot in 1964. No one is saying Williams was some uncrowned champion but he was definitely a better fighter than the contenders Marciano beat (LaStarza, Matthews, Layne, Cockell etc). Liston KOs Marciano. It's very simple if you try to be objective. I just wanna ask one more question, who beats Marciano in a fantasy fight? Imo, Liston is one of the worst matchups for Marciano. If you don't believe Liston could beat him, I wanna know who could.
Valdes was the #1 contender in 1953 and 1954. He was #1 when Moore beat him. Bob Baker was unranked, he was 1-2 in previous 3.
no it is not. Louis won 8 fights in 12 months. Ali had lost his last fight and was plucked from retirement and should not have been in the ring for either the Holmes or Berbick fight. Floyd is said to be negligibly taller than Rocky, mostly on account of his quiff. If you google photos of Rocky And Floyd together there is not much in it. Though what that has to do with Rocky never beating a 213 pound modern sized heavyweight with a current world ranking I don’t know. no I compared him in size and that he was still a relevant opponent for this debate. Even that version of Louis has better recent wins than Cleveland Williams had in his whole career. Louis beat Savold, Bivins and Brion. When was Williams beating men like this before he fought Liston? This is still not befitting of a champion. Willard quit after a lot worse against a much harder puncher. That’s the guy you can make an excuse for. yes the jockstrap has everything to do with it. where was he ranked at that time? He blew the rematch. Williams got knocked out in key fights. The record does not prove it because none of the guys Williams knocked out were that good at the time. Layne totally eclipses Williams for Resume. Compared to cockel and Lastarza Williams simply did not beat enough guys to earn a shot at the title. There are a lot of difficult fights for Rocky where I would not be surprised that he lost against them. The thing i have no problem arguing about though is this business that somebody walks right through him easily. I guess on a good night I would not be surprised if a prime Ali, prime Louis, prime Johnson, Lennox Lewis beat him. heck, even Foreman, even Liston have punchers chances against Rocky. But he has at least a punchers chance with all of them. Nobody walks through him.
The epitome of erudite rebuttal .Kudos to you Golden Sulk ! Are you here much, or just in the school holidays? Have your parents censored the PC to restrain your natural bent for more descriptive obscenities?
Whitehurst survived the second Liston fight on a technicality he had been knocked clean out of the ring in the last round and was in the process of trying to get back in when the final bell rang saving him from a ko. Marshall rang like a thief in the third fight and lost every round .Liston had him up and down like a yo yo in their second fight .Neither of the latter fights was in any way competitive. I agree Liston's legacy is harmed by the Ali fights. You mention the Marshall fights when Liston was a novice. How about the Lowry fights when Marciano was a fighter with 20 and 20 fights under his belt? Or the one against the luckless Willis Applegate 11-16-2 , when Rocky was a veteran of 34 fights? All went the distance some believing Lowry won the 1st. Is Liston's loss through injury in his 8th fight as detrimental to his standing as these?
Patterson was 6 foot Marciano 5 feet ten and a half ,last time I checked that's an inch and a half disparity. Savold was more washed up than Louis,Bivins was old too,Brion was never more than a fringe contender.
I don’t think early fights are detrimental until there is talk of “Liston walking right through Marciano” because Rocky was less than 190lb crops up. If somebody implies one man would definitely be obliterated by another guy because he simply couldn’t lose to a man that small.. you have to recall fights where he lost to guy who was even lighter. You have to mention the guy always made him look bad even when he beat him. The point isn’t Sonny never got better. He did. The point is how can the size issue be so instrumental if he had his jaw broke, was beat, won but looked bad, couldn’t knockout guys who were similar weight range or smaller?
