The Greats...

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by George Crowcroft, May 21, 2019.


  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Probably, but that's not what I mean. When a guy loses a lot (Relative to other great fighters) what is it telling us? Usually it's telling us he is less great than those fighters.
     
  2. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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  3. Balder

    Balder Well-Known Member banned Full Member

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    I have him in my top 10.
     
  4. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  5. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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  6. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Yeah, it's your list dude. The strange ones for me are Freddie Mills, which is probably one of the more bizarre selections i've seen for one of these lists, what's the thinking there? Do you think you can stand his resume next to Dillon's or is there a different reason for having them side by side? To be clear, I don't think there's a reasonable case to have him in the 50 (or the 100) but i'm interested in how he compares to Dillon?

    The other one is Billy Miske. Any reason he's ahead of Kid Norfolk despite Norfolk thrashing him? Miske, again, not top 100 candidate at all for me.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
  7. ChrisJS

    ChrisJS Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Just taking a quick look I’d nitpick the following

    Far too high
    Rosenbloom, Ted Kid Lewis, Levinsky, Nelson

    Too high
    L. Lewis, Johnson, Britton

    Far too low
    Jofre, Ortiz, Monzon

    Too low
    Pep, Duran, Robinson, Armstrong (surely SRR is top 3 and Armstrong a lock for top 5?)

    Ross really third out of the Ross-Canzoneri-McLarnin trio?

    You might want to consider Luis Rodriguez. It’s hard to watch their series and think Rodriguez didn’t get the better of it and overall probably did better at Middleweight (though never got the title). Rodriguez should rank near Griffith at least. His resume is incredible, especially if you value wins over bigger men.

    No Julio Cesar Chavez, Ruben Olivares, Kid Gavilan, Holman Williams or Alexis Arguello? Surely they are top 50 in anyone’s book? Jake LaMotta probably too.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2019
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  8. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    I have to agree with McGrain that I don't understand the picks for Mills and Miske

    Miske was just a contender, not even the best heavyweight contender of the 1910s, and the best person in Mills' resume is Len Harvey, and Harvey arguably isn't even top 100 p4p

    Both you and McGrain overrate George Dixon. He doesn't make my top 50.

    Glad to see Levinsky is in your list, even if he's a bit high. I also have Levinsky top 100.

    Dick Tiger is a lil too high, as well as Bivins and Nonpariel. Might you consider raising Saddler?

    You're still missing Barney Ross, among others (like Arguello and Marciano). But really, Where's Ross?
     
  9. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Ye I've gotten a bit of stick for those, I really value Rosenbloom and Lewis's longevity and résumé. Nelson and Levinsky could do with some work

    On name value (which is how I take it) Lewis, Johnson and Britton have excellent résumés, I could definitely see changes but I'm pretty happy with them pics

    If I took H2H and skill into account then they'd all rank higher, but I think for the criteria I'm using (see OP) most the guys above him have him beat. How'd you put them guys over?

    I've never seen a case for Duran in the top 10. Not a hater I just think those in my top 10 have him beat. Pep is a strange one, his résumé is incredible, long and has names coming out the Wazoo but it's the same as Duran, I don't who I'd place him below him. Robinson and Ali could be swapped, but I'd still have Charles, Langford and Greb above him, the same reasoning for Duran goes for Armstrong.

    I think McLarnin was no.1 but I could see a switch, either way someone has to be at the bottom

    Will do!

    Chavez and Olivares to me doesn't have the résumé, I'll have to re read it tho. Gavalin is there. Williams is a good shout, so LaMotta and Arguello, tho I think Arguello narrowly misses the list, maybe 70s?
     
  10. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I might overrate Dixon, but you overrate rocky so I think it's allowed lol, Barney Ross is a 21.
    I could see a change but I think Bivins is in a good position (plus lowering him devalues Charles and we can't have that)

    Cool!
    I'll have to reconsider then, I swear he had better wins from what I remember but I'll have to have a look
    Mills has some good wins, maybe I'm overrating him tho, again I'll have to check
     
  11. The Undefeated Lachbuster

    The Undefeated Lachbuster On the Italian agenda Full Member

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    Am I blind????

    Also imo Marciano is at least a top 60 staple. McGrain has him somewhere in the 60s
     
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  12. George Crowcroft

    George Crowcroft Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    I am going to say yes.

    Well my criteria is based on name value so I could see how he could get there
     
  13. ChrisJS

    ChrisJS Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Names isn’t just resume. For example Shane Mosley and Miguel Cotto will go into the hall of fame and have a better “name” than Meldrick Taylor or Chucho Castillo or Lionel Rose or Jose Luis Ramirez or Roger Mayweather for example, who aren’t in. Does that make Canelo’s wins over them superior? You’ve got to put into context resume is also accomplishments and not strictly name. Olivares was the one and only champion at Bantamweight in a Golden era and Chavez was dominant and unified in two divisions. Some guys stop other guys being great or Hall of fame and that can lead to misleading views on their “resumes”.

    Springs Toledo has a great criteria for all-time rankings and there’s quite a few categories I think like 7-8 areas. Ring generalship/skills has to be included IMO and I don’t think resume is strictly names. You can’t convince me that Lewis KO8 Tyson, Holmes KO10 Ali, Lewis W12 or Robinson W10 Armstrong are better than Trinidad KO12 Vargas or Olivares KO5 Rose for example. That’s a problem with just doing fast research and looking for glittering names. The research takes months, years and there’s no exact science so it’s beyond difficult.
     
  14. Aydamn

    Aydamn Dillian Da Dissappointment Full Member

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    How about Frank Bruno having 22 fights in one year.

    What the ****? Has any boxer surpassed that?
     
  15. RulesMakeItInteresting

    RulesMakeItInteresting Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Rays Robinson and Leonard, Duran, Ali, Joe Louis. I'd say they fit the qualifications.