Kazuto Ioka: top 15 all time south of bantamweight already?

All jokes aside, Wolgast had a very strong resume. Amazing fighter.

 

Who are the actual historians you refer to?

 

I'd add Borkhorsor, Salavarria, Gushiken, Alfonso Lopez, Espadas, Oguma, Park, Ibarra, Burruni, McGowan, Chitalada, Avelar to that list. Probably a few others that I haven't remembered. Flyweight is a very deep division and there's a lot to be said for being the top dog for a short time during a strong era, (or repeatedly giving other excellent/great fighters good fights over a period of time even if you don't win them all) as opposed to weight jumping tiny amounts and winning belts against mediocre opposition but not being the best fighter in the division.

 

I'd have to agree.
For two of the weight classes Ioka 'conquered' he was the 'Regular' champion. For some reason a bout with Chocolatito never occurred. Even if he lost, but put in a good performance, his stock could be higher IMO.
Regardless, Ioka is a quality operator. I'd like to see what he does next.

 

He's a good fighter, no doubt, I like him. Just not a great one or even a genuinely excellent/near-great as IB was suggesting, the weight-jumping by a couple of lbs and 'title' fight stats distort the picture somewhat. Gonzalez would've broken him down pretty convincingly for me, Ioka is a bit too straight-up, hittable and relatively basic in approach to win that one. I thought old boy Nietes, who I also really like, legitimately edged him close but clear, so I don't think he'd be favoured against Estrada or Srisaket unless either of them decline suddenly. Both have a higher ceiling and have achieved more in a shorter time.

Super-fly is properly interesting though with Estrada, Sor Rungvisai, Nietes, Ioka, Yafai and Ancajas all in the mix. I expect that we won't get the matchups that we want but whoever cleans house out of that lot has some serious notches on their cosh. Estrada and Sor Rungvisai already do and their legacies would be secured; Ioka and Nietes would have elite marquee names to add to their numerous wins over mediocrity and trinket collections; Ancajas would be catapulted into the forefront of the current lower weights and p4p ratings.

 

Yeah, I agree. To be honest, I voted for him as possibly near. But as I examined his record, it seems there is quite a bit of fluff, though he has some solid opposition. Guess I bought into the hype for a moment haha. Would definitely not put him around people such as Chang etc.

Slightly off topic, but what are your thoughts on Shinsuke Yamanaka? I've been watching him recently. Seems very dominant, but not the highest level of opposition.

 

I'm not an expert on Yamanaka mate, for what it's worth. A good effective fighter to my mind, a decent boxer-puncher with a fairly smooth relaxed approach. Effective textbook punch slipper with good feet/movement and that crunching straight/overhand left. Very one dimensional in his approach though and lacking in offensive variety or range, basically almost entirely a 1-2 fighter with no right hand and an inconsistent jab. His tack was basically to goad his opponent into throwing first in order to either slip and counter or beat them to the draw with his big left hand, a formidable shot. Overall, a sort of poor man's bantamweight Gushiken.

I was never a fan of his opposition tbh. Darchinyan and the awkward spoiler Moreno were his best opponents as far as I can see, with Darchinyan being past his best up at 118 and having been schooled by Moreno not long prior. The Moreno fights happened too late after Anselmo was upset by Payano and no longer the man to beat technically as he arguably had been following Mares moving up in weight. Yamanaka was imo past his own best though in fairness and Moreno was an unkind style for him to have to face.

I remember him being looked upon as the premier bantam later on during his reign but I don't think he ever established that tbh. Santa Cruz was the best of the splinter titleists post-Donaire imo though he also didn't really prove it. Yamanaka fits in quite well with Perez, Agbeko, Mares, Moreno, Kameda etc.

 

What an amazing , well written post.

 

... Dude. You just destroyed the Classic section.

Seriously though, it is a shame. Flea wrote a great article on the top 10 bantams, and reading through the old posts of him, lora, confuscious etc. was very educational for me. It's just recently he acts like an absolute knob.

And regarding your point on modern fighters, I generally agree. H2H, some of them would put on fantastic fights with the past greats. However, reaching their 'greatness' levels is a big ask. The only recent lower weight fighter I could call an ATG would be Roman Gonzales, who I would pick to beat Ioka etc.

I also think Thai fighters stack up better H2H than being 'great', generally speaking. Samart Payakaroon is a monster H2H, and I would pick him to generally beat anyone round his weight today (maybe not Inoue) . He doesn't rank high in boxing greatness, though. You do get fighters like Venice, Kingpetch, the Galaxy brothers and Chionoi who are great fighters, and people like Sahaprom who are just below.

 

Well...I think there's something to what @Tin_Ribs says when he states that a fighter who reigns as unified champion or in a deeper era should likely be given more consideration in all time rankings than a guy who moves up and wins titles in multiple divisions, but doesn't face the best opponents he can at any weight.

To that end, now that I think about it, I probably would rate guys like Betulio Gonzalez and Shoji Oguma above an Ioka in an all time ranking based on better wins and the breadth of their work.

By the same token, I'd currently be inclined to rate Ioka over someone like Gushiken, who's already in the HOF because I feel Ioka's resume is a bit deeper. And, based on the way he's performed and how he passes the eye test, I wouldn't rule him out against some of the better regarded guys at weights 115 or less.

 

Betulio Gonzalez.

Now that is a Forgotten Fighter!

I think @PhillyPhan69 was very interested in him a while back.

 

Q

That's fair with Ioka and Gushiken. I dunno if I agree or not tbh, but it seems a reasonable statement. I think Gushiken was more talented but probably isn't a great fighter achievement-wise either; his career ended pretty ignominiously with the Flores loss and his opposition was sort of just ok on an all-time historical level. Ioka has amassed a respectable record and already come back from a controversial defeat which is to be commended. I like him and he has the chance to unquestionably overtake Gushiken legacy-wise, though time is kicking on. I just don't see a Roman Gonzalez level fighter, that guy is/was a genuinely great fighter for my money. He's still a very good fighter though(Ioka).