Was Muhammad Ali fortunate that he got to work with Angelo Dundee or was it the other way around?

Dundee trained many greats and was on the path to success since he was being trained by Charlie Goldman, who was a great trainer himself.

Ali was a phenom talent, he would've succeeded with many trainers. That being said I think him and Dundee had a special duo and Ali wouldn't have reached the heights of skill he did without Dundee. Dundee allowed Ali to do some self molding that many trainers are too afraid to do.

Also about the getting hit thing, D'Amato was probably right. I've both read and watched Ali purposefully let himself get hit whilst working on rope a dope

 

Don't really have to add to this, great post Lach

 

Dundee was more fortunate to work with Ali, obviously.

 

Dundee was really little more than a cheer leader...he contributed little substantially to either Ali'a or Pastrano's styles IMO.

 

did you mean, d´amato was probably right ?
because it was d´amato who pointed this out towards dundee.

 

Ah yes my bad, I was thinking about Dundee so much that I accidentally wrote his name there

 

Except that it’s a helluva coincidence that so many of Dundee’s fighters were movers with great footwork, huh. What are the odds?

They benefitted from each other. Dundee put together the Louisville investors who put up the money to start Ali’s career, allowing him the independence and resources to develop rather than tying himself to a particular promoter or pick fights based on random offers.

Dundee’s real brilliance was twofold - as a matchmaker and cornerman. He exposed his fighters to various styles and challenges to not just build up their records but learn so they were prepared for the bigger challenges ahead.

He also turned down Thomas Hearns as an opponent for SRL for a $200k fight on their way up before the public knew who Hearns was and said if we wait we’ll fight him for millions.

 

I don't feel like tracking down the footage and timestamp right ow, but as I remember it d'Amato points out that Ali is taking two steps to avoid a punch where he previously required only one, and Dundee ruefully agrees, then points out in puzzlement that Ali will stubbornly take punches in sparring on purpose, and it's heavily implied by his tone that Dundee disapproves of this.

 

It's part of the documentary "AKA Cassius Clay" - a great watch on Youtube and worth finding. Ali was training for his comeback after the layoff, and sparring in preparation for Quarry. It's neat as hell watching D'Amato and Dundee, two men who trained some of the most famous fighters in the game, talking peer-to-peer and each giving their interpretation about what Ali looks like, and what he's doing. D'Amato's input is so much more subjective, and eerily accurate; Dundee is almost rationalizing his fighter's behavior. Neither man was necessarily pleased with what was going on, but Angelo had the perspective of knowing Ali's mindset and way of doing things.

Much of the documentary is Ali and D'Amato watching old fighters and giving commentary (very entertaining!), and I had the impression if there were another trainer who Muhammad might have worked successfully with, it was Cus ... though, with Cus' history, I doubt he would have passed muster with the Muslims Alis associated himself with.

 

Mutual. Ali had the raw talent to become a champion without Dundee. However, without Dundee, who was without a doubt a great cornerman Ali most likely would’ve taken a loss or two earlier in his career before getting a title. Dundee also made sure Ali was matched very well early in his career, so that Ali got used to different styles.

Also, Ali’s comments about adapting to everything himself shows how delusional fighters can be. In plenty of Ali’s fights Dundee would tell Ali what he wanted to hear and then tell him how good his left hook, bodywork, or counters were and because he complimented him Ali would do it. Dundee himself admitted that Ali wouldn’t take any direct instructions from anybody, but a little reverse psychology worked like a charm. This is why Archie Moore didn’t last as Ali’s trainer, since he tried to give Ali instructions and Ali wasn’t having it.

From my first hand experience Wilder is the same way. Any direct instructions Breland or Deas would give him Wilder would completely disregard it. The only person that could get Wilder to listen was Rus Anber because he knew how to play to Wilder’s ego.

My trainer, Deas, Breland, and even Buddy McGirt couldn’t get Wilder to work on his footwork or jab, but Anber told Wilder how great his jab was and understood that he was saving it and immediately Wilder started working on the jab to prove how good it was. (it was mediocre).

 

A bit of both. I mean, Dundee did have Pastrano and Rodriguez before Ali, but they were actually developed more by that Cuban 'massuese' than Dundee, atleast technically.

 

I know that Dundee claims to have used reverse psychology and flattery to control Ali, but I’ve always wondered about that story.

What do you mean that they couldn’t get Wilder to work on his footwork or jab? Would he refuse to throw jabs when they instructed him to? Refuse to do footwork-oriented drills?

 

If he did, it wouldn't be unusual behavior at all. A fighter can be doing everything in a less than optimal fashion; if he has been successful it can, in many cases, be nextdoor to impossible to get him to change. And, you know, it isn't exactly unusual for a young man to think he's smarter than all the old men trying to advise him. So you end up playing psychology games to get your point across.

That is the biggest reason why a trainer will have success with one boxer and not another, or why a fighter will switch trainers and flourish. The trainer's way of communicating and the fighters way of understanding (and accepting) ideas and information has to sync up.

 

You’re talking chess to someone who hasn’t mastered checkers haha.