Georges Carpentier v Gunboat Smith

Carp was considered the greatest European fighter ever for many decades. When he fought Dempsey he was European hwt champion as well as worlds lt hwt champion. A well known superstar on both continents.

 

There was a white heavyweight title at the same time there was a white heavyweight champion (the regular world champ) who drew a color line and would only fight whites?

 

The punch that got Smith disqualified was said to have brushed the top of Carpentier's head,the Frenchman's manager began screaming at the referee and he tossed Smith out.

The punch that hit Carpentier whilst he was down was said to have hit him on the shoulder.The Frenchman's manager began screaming for a foul and the referee complied. Carpentier was a product of hype imo, his record as a lightheavyweight champion is poor ,his record as a world class heavyweight is non existent. here is an evaluation on him made 3 yrears ago by Klompton.
"1. I never said the Smith fight was fixed. I said there was biased, and incorrect officiating. It happens in that error but that fight certainly doesnt shine the greatest light on Carpentier. When you get brushed on the shoulder and collapse, rolling around on the canvas holding your head in your hands in what many ringside said was a horrible acting job, dont come to me and claim greatness.

2. The result of the Levinsky fight was called into question and many writers wrote openly about Levinsky selling his championship to Carpentier. Whether it actually was is no matter to me because the point stands: If Carpentier's greatness is based on beating a guy who showed up fat, with a double chin, a knee brace, and several no decision losses to better fighters than Carpentier, am I supposed to pretend Carpentier did something special by beating him?

3. The fact that Carpentier clearly participated in fights fixed in his favor: Siki was a disaster of a fix for Carpentier and Carpentier even admitted his involvement and knowledge of it, Townely was going down without even being hit, Klaus and Papke both returned to the US with stories of turning down offers to lose to Carpentier, etc. Then I dont need to speculate whether Carpentier was guilty of that. If the stench of a fix was on the Levinsky fight and was tied to a guy who took part in such affairs, then at the very least it casts doubt upon the result. Whether you choose to believe it matters little to me. The burden of proof for a fix may be on me, but the burden of proof for his greatness rests with those making such claims and that proof is razor thin at best and non existent at worst."

 

They say there is a sucker born every minute ,well nearly 90,000 paying $10 00,000 crammed themselves into Boyle's thirty acres to watch Dempsey leisurely take the small Frenchman apart in 4 rds.As a spectacle it was tremendous ,as a fight it was a foregone conclusion
However , you can hardly blame Dempsey for taking such a lucrative gimmee defense as this was.

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The Times (London) 17 July 1914 (page 9)
SMITH BEATEN ON A FOUL
SIX STRENUOUS ROUNDS.
FRENCH BOXER'S IMPROVEMENT.
THE SCENE AT OLYMPIA
The 20-round contest between George Caroentier, of France, and Gunboat Smith, of America, took place at Olympia last night.
Smith was disqualified in the sixth for a foul blow and the fight was awarded to Carpentier.
The blow for which Smith was disqualified was a light one. Carpentier gfell, the fall being half slip, from the force of a missed lead, half knock-down, for Smith hit him on the side of the head as he overbalanced. Then Smith turned quickly and hit Carpentier, who was on his hands and knees, a light blow on the neck. M. Descamps, Carpentier's manager and one of his seconds, rushed into the ring and claimed a foul, and Mr. Eugene Corri, the referee, had no choice but to disqualify Smith and award the fight to Carpentier.
The match was for a purse and stakes amounting in all to £8,000, Carpentier was to receive £4,000, win, lose, or draw; Smith £3,000 if he won, £2,000 if he lost. There was also stake of £500 aside.
THE FIGHT DESCRIBED.
CARPENTIER'S SUPERIORITY
Carpentier entered the ring at 9:45, and was greeted with cheers, but there was not the same enthusiasiasm shown as when Combardier Wells made his appearance in the same arena a short time ago, Carpentier went to the corner that Freddie Welsh occupied for his fight with Ritchie, and sat there smiling and nodding to friends whilst waiting for Smith to appear. Smith came in soon after and was warmly welcomed by numerous Americans present.
Gunboat Smith in action was not, as it turned out, so good as the Gunboat Smith of the gymnasium. He also was manifestly one of the brotherhood of Titans built up from the ground. From the very first he was out-paced and out-manoeuvred by the French champion, who never had the slightest difficulty in evading his tremendous right swings. At in-fighting Carpentier was much the cleverer boxer; he hit away at a great rate with both hands, causing the American to grunt whenever he landed on the middle section, and often getting in a snappy upper-cut (very much like Jack Johnson's), which carried much more force than was apparent.
Against all the young Frenchman's battery of half-arm hits (he seldom risks a swing or a straight left) Gunboat Smith had nothing but his long and inaccurate right and a somewhat useful jolt at close quarters. He does not make the most of his inside hitting; his attempts to get the "shift" on the two occasions when he was inside was clumsy and unsuccessful. From the outset it was clear that Carpentier must win as he pleased on points if the contest went the full distance.
But after a rather quiet round, the shadow of a knock-out began to hang over the American's head. He was badly shaken in the second round, and one felt inclined to anticipate a quick curtain. He was flushed as he took the minute's rest and had not quite recovered when the gong sounded. In the third round, though he was easily out-pointed, he did fairly well; evidently he was the much stronger man in the clinches, and it is clear that he has remarkable powers of recovery.
In the fourth round he was apparently improving and less flustered by the menacing approach of his opponent (who once grimaced at him), but he took a very hard right from Carpentier at the close of the bout. Had this hit landed a little lower down on the side of the face he might have been knocked out. As it was he was down (though not really badly hurt) to take a long rest, which was interrupted by the gong. In the fifth round the breaking-up process was continued by Carpentier, whose in-fighting was excellent, and Smith was very weary when he went to his corner. One had only to look at the serious faces of his seconds to know that even they were expecting an early catastrophe.
SMITH'S UNLUCKY MISTAKE.
In the sixth round the fight came to its unfortunate conclusion. After an exchange of blows Smith rushed and Carpentier, missing a lead, overbalanced and fell. Smith chopped him on the back of the neck as he knelt with his head bowed, and the inevitable disqualification followed.
In view of his brilliant display in the first five rounds it cannot be said that Carpentier owed anything to luck. He would, in our judgement, have won decisively within 10 rounds.
Smith was hooted as he left the ring. The crowd always believes a foul of this kind is deliberate. It is absurd to think so. Anybody who had been getting the worst of a fierce contest, when the whole body hums and rocks to jarring blows, knows how easy it is not to see whether an opponent is down or not. Mr. Corri was not in time to interpose and order Smith back before the fatal blow was struck.
A little practical knowledge of the psychology of the ring is enough to prevent one from writing down the defeated boxer as a foul fighter. He merely made an unfortunate mistak, for which a sufficiently high penalty had been paid.

 

Luther McCarty and Al Palzer (who IIRC had won a competition for white hopes) fought for the new title in 1913, McCarty winning.
McCarty was then killed in the ring in a fight with Arthur Pelkey, entering the ring injured and getting fatally KOed by a soft punch.
Pelky lost his next fight with Gunboat Smith, not long before this fight.

Smith actually fought Jack Blackburn between the the Pelky and Carpentier fights, but only in a 6 rounder, who remained unbeaten until he fought Dempsey.

 

My point is, obviously, that Carp historically was considered the greatest European fighter for many decades. At 27 he was a world famous athlete.

 

The proof of the pudding is in the eating of the pudding , not in the perception of the pudding.
How many world class wins does he have on his resume?

 

Looking at a boxing career over 100 years old via examining a fighters record is very different from examining the history as it was seen during their time.

This is why Carp was considered the greatest European fighter for many decades.

 

Surely Carpentier was never considered the greatest ever European boxer above Jimmy Wilde at any point in time? Most famous and popular, very probably.

Then there is Fitz, if you consider him European.

 

Multi European/French champion from low weight classes up to hwt. Light hwt champion of the world.
Impressive credentials from an European perspective for sure.

 

Defended his world title twice once against an ex lightweight who scaled 157lbs once against a no hoper in a fixed fight in which he lost. I'd like you to compare Carpentier's best wins against the following European fighters who operated within 2 decades of his career
Carpentier;
Jeff Smith light middleweight
GunBoat Smith dsq
Battling Levinsky
Ted Kid Lewis fighting as a LHVy whilst scaling157lbs

Ted Kid Lewis;
Basham x4 Contender
O Dowd World Chmp
Britton x7 ATG Champ
White Contender
Shugrue Contender
MandotContender
Tillman x2
Todd Contender
Ritchie World Champ

Marcel Thil;
Apostoli World Champion
Brouilardx3 World Champion
McAvoy Top contender
Harvey Top Contender
Dundee Top Contender
Jones Top Contender Title Claimant
Tunero x2 Top Contender


Jack Kid Berg;
Boon Contender
Routis x2World Champ
Mizlerx2 Contender
Larkin World champ
Humery Contender
Wickwar Contender
Chocolate x2ATG Champ
Petrolle Top Contender
Callahan x2 World champ
Canzoneri ATG Multi Champ

Marcel Cerdan;
Zale ATG Champ
Delannoit Top Contender
Raadik Top contender
Green Contender
Abrams Top Contender
Williams Top Contender

Robert Villemain;
Delannoit Top Contender
Walzack Contender
Dauthille Top Contender
Kouidri Contender
BoonContender
Raadik Contender
Lamotta ATG Champ
GavilanATG Champ
Nardico Contender
Basora Contender


Now tell us honestly, is Carpentier's record against world class opponent's superior in any way to those I've posted?

You keep making these unsubstantiated claims but,when asked for proof produce NONE!

 

Wrong. It’s the historical record that Carp was considered the best fighter out of Europe for decades. How you or I compare various fighters records has nothing to do or has any bearing upon this history.

It’s a fools game to look at fighters records in determining historical weight. One needs to dig deep into those specific times and after to hear what was written concerning specific fights and fighters legacy.