I agree with the entirety of your post but I must ask, how many belts did Larry Holmes unify? If I remember correctly Larry got stripped of the WBC and won the IBF outside of the ring. Joshua and Fury have at least tried to unify all the belts holding three of them at one stage.
Unifying “belts” means nothing, zip, nada. Holmes was the true champion. The rest were a lineage created once Ali retired that had Zero historical merit.
You miss the point entirely. It' entirely fair to say Holmes wins all these fights - absolutely. To try and fob them all off as extremely easy because Holmes is an ATG and they aren't is quite frankly ridiculous. Mike Weaver was 19-8 when he fought peak Holmes and he gave him hell before Holmes huge fighting heart pulled him thru. At one stage it looked entirely possible Weaver might even pull off an upset. Weaver was never an ATG or even remotely close. He fits your criteria above - very inexperienced and having done (less than in this case) nothing to be rated anywhere near close to Holmes. Renaldo Snipes also fits the bill. He had 22 fights under his belt and again never amounted to a big deal yet droped Holmes HARD. He was in a bad way, reeling into the turnbuckle during the count before his huge heart put him in control again. Witherspoon with just 15 fights under his belt yet gave a still prime but fading Holmes a great fight and hurt him quite seriously in that awesome 9th round. So the fact of the matter is that average to good contenders could indeed trouble Holmes. There's Shavers too. Tho Larry owned him for 99% of their time in the ring he still had his moment, and it was a huge one. All these guys were massive underdogs, bigger underdogs than a couple of this current lot would be. Wilder has 42 fights under his belt. We can bag his opposition all we like but he still has a huge amount of fights under his belt which leads me to my next point. George foreman utterly obliterated Joe Frazier despite having fought mostly nobodies. So there is even precedence fr ATG's getting shocked by somewhat unproven up and comers. I'd be hugely surprised if any of these guys beat Holmes, but i'd be utterly gobsmacked if he got past all four as easily as many want to envisage. It doesn't match his actual career. Holmes was a sort of in between fighter. He couldn't box rings around guys like a pre-exile Ali could and he couldn't get people out of there like a Tyson or Louis. He had to get down and dirty and wear down many guys and he could struggle with guys he wasn't expected to. He had a fantastic jab but it didn't shut out fights (as opposed to pre exile Ali who had incredible reflexes and footwork to go with that jab) as guys like Weaver, Shavers, Witherspoon, Snipes and co all got around it to have their moments. Holmes however had that ATG heart and will to win which for me were his strongest assets. So at the end of the day it takes more than just resume to win fights, or (more aptly here in this thread) win them oh so easily.
We are talking Holmes at his best.l not off nights or against surprisingly strong opponents where he undertrained. At his best he is just a much more highly skilled fighter and a fighter who had shown his toughness, will to win, courage over and over again. These are the points YOU are missing. Tough fights make an ATG fighter. You can’t be an ATG hwt without being taken to the well and risen to the occasion to win. The four fighters in question in the position Holmes was in vs Weaver would have lost. Today’s hwt landscape stinks. It’s a watered down boxing world where mediocre talent can be called a contender.
A few errors here from the King of the I dislike Larry Holmes poster. Holmes opposition was solid. I see you mentioned Wilder had 42 fights, are you suggesting he was better than say Witherspoon who fought Holmes with 15? Clarification is needed, that's up to you to reply to the question. You are mistaken, Holmes could shut out fighters. He was that good. Shaver's won one round, Holmes the rest. One score card had Holmes shuttling out Berbick, 150-135! You don't have to use Tex Cobb as an example here for a shut out. If you want to get granular, Holmes didn't have as many embarrassing moments as Ali did, losing rounds by to lesser opponents as frequently, or getting floored by smaller or not as good opponents. At least your right on his heart being great. Now add chin and the mind to adjust, and you'll almost be home.
Holmes beats all four. Fury would give him a decent fight and last the distance. Fury might win 3 or 4 rounds of a 12 rounder. Ruiz might last the distance but his face would be red raw by the end of the fight and he's unlikely to win more than 1 round. Wilder would probably last 8 or 9 rounds and be stopped. Joshua would probably fold sometime around that mark too.
As i said years ago when i came back here don't bother trying to converse with me as you are an absolute shyte agenda driven unable to learn poster who i have absolutely no time for.
You cannot pick and choose multiple fights from a guys peak/prime period to throw out just because he had trouble and it doesn't suit a personal view. That's just excuse making to suit a given stance. Holmes is an ATG without question - that isn't even up for debate. One doesn't however have to go to the well time and time again to be an ATG and i don't agree with you conveniently segregating heavyweights on the matter. Duran wasn't overly taken to the well at 135 and certainly not over and over but he sure was an ATG lightweight. Sure Esteban beat him but that's a well documented outlier that was avenged twice. Regarding those four against Weaver highlights the entire point - how many of these four would find themselves in that position? It's quite probable at least one of these guys gets past him with less trouble. It's also absurd to categorically say Fury (lineal champ) would have lost from the same position when he recently came off the floor from an immense knockdown (and a lesser one) to not only survive but thrive in a fight he should have won. Sure the present landscape is under scrutiny. It's also been called mediocre at various times throughout history. Holmes era was never considered overly strong and you will in here today Marciano's era is considered "mediocre" by a great many. Many also attack the Louis era. The 70's is one of the few era's not attacked. We'll see where this lot end up. It's far from completely impossible one or even two end up highly regarded. If Fury won a Wilder rematch and defended a few times he's certainly pressing.
I think I mentioned, Weaver was far from an ATG but the man did come up with some dramatic surprises....knocking down and giving serious trouble to Holmes, knocked the #1 heavyweight prospect out at the last minute (Tate), soundly beating two big contenders during their respective primes (Coetzee and Tillis), kayoing Carl Williams, etc. Mike wasn't a joke, there's a reason he became the "other" champion in the 80s...and was probably overall a better fighter (at least with more fortunate wins) than once-considered-a-big-shot Dokes.
A few errors here from the King of the I dislike Larry Holmes poster. Holmes opposition was solid. I see you mentioned Wilder had 42 fights, are you suggesting he was better than say Witherspoon who fought Holmes with 15? Clarification is needed, that's up to you to reply to the question. You are mistaken, Holmes could shut out fighters. He was that good. Shaver's won one round, Holmes the rest. One score card had Holmes shuttling out Berbick, 150-135! You don't have to use Tex Cobb as an example here for a shut out. If you want to get granular, Holmes didn't have as many embarrassing moments as Ali did, losing rounds by to lesser opponents as frequently, or getting floored by smaller or not as good opponents. At least your right on his heart being great. Now add chin and the mind to adjust, and you'll almost be home You have time to reply but a personal attacks doesn't erase your mistakes or agenda. Might I suggest you and Flea Man get your own cyber forum? Holmes couldn't shut out fighters you say? Classic stuff!
I want to respectfully stay out of the battle here, but you've got excellent points imo. I rewatched Berbick-Holmes last night and though the knockout lovers are most likely not wild about that fight it does show Holmes still at his peak. It also shows him almost completely dominating a young man who would go onto become champion (like other challengers in the Holmes' resume). Few other defenses showcase just how Larry's jab won fights for him; it's like watching a work of art in action. Berbick was only backed up a few times, for the most part he tried like hell to have a slug out with Larry and kept getting that freakily nasty, twisting, POWERFUL jab in his face. It's a truly marvelous display of Larry's skills and imo that fight cannot be underestimated. I think it helped Berbick by teaching him the ways of a champion. To me Larry stayed at his peak right up to and including the Cobb...and then showed his last great flashes of that prime in the fight against Witherspoon (I get the feeling those same flashes were primarily responsible for the judges giving him that fight, outside of Tim's at times confounding tendency to lay back at the wrong times...classic boo-boo of the underexperienced).
The poster in question hates Holmes and has been saying inaccurate statements about him for years. Oh sure, Holmes couldn't shut fighters out! Larry is one of the best boxers ever to hold the title. Far more versatile in attack than Ali, Holmes attack featured an uppercut, a right hand, body shots, and a left hook, set up by perhaps the finest jab in heavyweight history. Holmes knew when to throw each punch and did it with accuracy,. The poster in question also has an odd infatuation about Greg Page. The trouble is the facts don't agree with him, and I'll point them out when needed. I would not waste much time on him. I agree with what you said in Berbick vs. Holmes 100%
Page? To me he was one of those fighters who showed a glimpse of great talent but lost some fights he SO needed to win. A couple of his losses were especially disappointing. I see Page as being a bit like Bowe (but far less of a fighter of course)...at crucial times he just couldn't seem to get it all the way up, lackadaisical "discipline"... I gave up on Page when Bey and Witherspoon beat him (no matter how folks see those fights). Larry would have pounded him and stopped him in 12.
I would have put you on ignore a decade ago but get far too much enjoyment out of you making an utter fool of yourself time and time again. The cherry on top is McVey making a complete ***** of you every time you exchange
There's no battle to stay out of - i haven't entertained the grub for years. He's a complete waste of time. Picks a guy 70+ years old for a fight on the forum and then doesn't have the stones to turn up as arranged
