Tunney is light years ahead of Ellis, Mathis certainly. Neither are thought of as great fighters. Tunney was an ATG. Ali again was never thought of as a great technical boxer. Tunney was ahead of all three in this regard. Really not debatable. Also not debatable we’re Frazier’s Technical flaws. Not having a right hand walking into the ring with a well prepared Gene Tunney you are looking at a LONG night. Tunney would keep Frazier’s left at bey knowing he had nothing to fear from Joe’s right side. That’s what an ATG boxer can do.
Also Houdini, what source do you have that tunney "trained down" to get to 190? That sounds bogus considering he spent 90% of his career as a light heavy. To "train down" to 190 implies he walks around at 200 bare minimum and this doesn't seem likely as he was a fully grown man shredded and in good condition to go the distance at light heavy for years.
My goodness now tunney is "light years" ahead of ellis mathis and Ali in terms of technique! I wish you said this in the beginning so id know not to take you seriously! Frazier had more than a hook. He had a bob and weave and some of the most intense body shots a pressure fighting tbe divisions ever seen. Everyone knew what his gameplan was before hand yet nearly every opponent went through hell and a long painful night regardless. Why do you think that is?
Joe had no right hand. Very well understood during that time. That is the point. Not having a right hand is a huge disadvantage getting into the ring with an ATG boxer. If you can’t understand this I suggest to study up. Mathis was a fat slob that could not stay with Frazier long term. Ellis did not have the mobility of a Tunney nor his technical ability. Neither were hwt champion and neither are considered ATG fighters. Tunney was and is. Ali had incredible speed and endurance and a style all his own. However his technical abilities were laid bare as he lost his speed he was forced to use gimmicks to get him through fights. Still the greatest of all hwt champions but this was Ali’s Achilles heel.
Bob Foster could box very well, had a great left jab, hook and right hands. He was obliterated by Frazier because his power didn't translate to heavyweight. Tunney could box but didn't have enough power (only seen as a good puncher at Lt Heavy not great) to make Joe respect him in the slightest. Frazier walks over Tunney and to say he was one handed is crap. His money shot was the left hook bet he was relentless to the body with either hand until the opponent was ready to be taken. The back pedaling Tunney employed against Dempsey wont work because unlike Jack, Joe was superb at cutting off the ring and working an opponent to the ropes (Dempsey just followed in straight lines), so what's left for Tunney to do? Stand and trade? Yeah good luck with that. Joe by stoppage in the middle rounds only because Tunney was tough.
All you're doing is repeating yourself. 1-post the source showing tunney trained down to 190 or shut up. 2-explain how frazier fought the same way and neglected his right hand and everyone knew this yet they still got clobbered? 3-tunney was NOT an ATG at Heavyweight, he was an ATG at light heavy. His strategic moving up to grab the belt from an inactive past his prime dempsey was no different from Chris Byrd or michael spinx moving up and grabbing a belt. It was an opportunistic move taking advantage of a weak era/declining champion (Holmes, old holyfield, etc). Byrd, spinx ans tunney were never "the man" at heavyweight nor did they have long reigns or mutiple top 10 prime opponents.
"I knew I was going to beat Jimmy because Jimmy aint no real heavyweight" Joe Frazier the morning after their fight. Ellis 6'1"201lbs Tunney 6' 0"189lbs
Point is that Tunney was a shredded 190 pound hwt. Very little body fat on prime Tunney. Tunneys right hand was a feared punch. One of Tunney's trainers lived into the 1960’s. He stated that Tunneys right hand was as feared as Listons. Fleischer rated Tunney as his No 9 ATG hwt champion. It’s hilarious to me there are those who prefer to make up their own history than understand history as it was. If ignorance was bliss you would be a saint.
The underlined is not only silly its non objective.Your ban certainly didn't teach you any humility did it? You're still singing that same old tired song , ie you know best and everyone else doesn't understand boxing history . When challenged on your lordly statements you resort to hackneyed phrases such as," I've read deeply about this era,I was around in those times". But you never produce verified sources to back up your pompous claims. You're so in love with yourself ,I bet when you get hot ,you sweat conceit Fleischer did not rate Muhammad Ali in his ATG top ten,therefore how much credence should you give him ranking Tunney at 9? Fleischer died inJune 1972, he never saw Foreman as a pro,never saw Spinks,Holmes,Vitali,Wlad,Bowe ,Tyson,Lewis,Holyfield. Are you seriously suggesting that at least two of those names would not supplant Tunney's no 9 placing and knock him out of a top ten? Tunney's heavyweight standing rests on two wins over a past prime champion,and two wins over a past prime Carpentier,173lbs and past prime Gibbons,179lbs.
Tunney was a natural light heavyweight for 9 years so he could only be so "shredded" at 190 and those additional mostly artificial 15 pounds would have to add a bit to his body fat.
I have one account. This is your comment ,what does it imply? "I guess in the slums of Argentina is it much harder to walk on the streets than in some country club of Philadelphia." Firpo was never familiar with the slums of Argentina ,no more than Frazier was familiar with Philadelphia country clubs.Just another asinine assumption from our resident ass!
I think Tunney could beat a lot of heavyweights,even perhaps some great ones who were prime. I just think this is a bad match up for him stylistically. There are some who think Tunney always beats Dempsey prime or otherwise, those that do must therefore give him a very good chance with Joe .I am not among them.
I know where they were born ,Frazier was born in Beaufort North Carolina in a poor farming community. The profile you have is,I can assure you,one no one else will ever want! The resident idiot!
