Lets settle the did tyson duck foreman debate

True. Plus George knew how to use his size. He was stronger, heavier and hit harder than Ruddock. Two handed power. Forcing Tyson backwards taking away his forward momentum and confidence with it.
Foreman had knowledge.

 

When George started his comeback he eased back in fighting a lot of stiffs. A lot of them were cruiserweights. He built up a lot of publicity but nobody was clamoring for him as a realistic Tyson opponent. He did beat Bert Cooper, who was a bit similar to Tyson in style, but even then Bert was drugged out. Then, Tyson lost his title. George finally beat a rated opponent but it was the overrated by the WBA Adilson Rodrigues. I suppose they could have fought in 90 or 91 but George was trying to get a title shot and did get one against Holyfield. Then, Tyson went to prison. By the time he returned to the ring, George was barely getting by the likes of Axzel Schultz.

 

Not quite, when Nielsen beat Witherspoon, Tim was only a couple of close losses off that great fight Tim had with Ray mercer that could have went either way the previous year. Nobody had stopped Tim since Bonecrusher Smith had years earlier, another guy Nielsen beat.

When was Foreman beating guys like Witherspoon, Holmes, Bonecrusher And Tubbs?

Jeremy Williams was a prime opponent when Nielsen knocked him out. Williams later beat 29-1 Atilla Levin and 35-1 André Purlette after Nielsen beat him. Jeremy Williams was a good fighter. The kind of guy who might have surprised a few people.

Was Michael Moorer ever much better than Jeremy Williams? On the night Holyfield flunked the title to Moorer I recon Williams could have came in and did the same job.

 

Correct on Holyfield. Foreman was seen in a new light after a good effort in that one. It wasn't life and death as some in here seem to have recalled (along with Holmes - Holyfield) but it was a fine effort. Only thing is Holyfield didn't yet have the title when he fought Dokes.

 

Yes Foremans stock did go up when he lost to Evander. I will give you that. But his stock never went beyond top five heavyweight in the world in reality. At no point was there less than four contenders who would be favourite to beat comeback George.

 

Foreman was rated #1 by the Ring for a while.

 

Choklab has some good arguments, but it doesn't seem too many folks here agree with him.

Nice to read some intelligently reasoned counter-points though.

Regardless of stats, Tyson told his handlers he didn't want to deal with that "animal" back before prison. There was even a tv program where Mike was asked to rate his chances against past heavyweight champs (and even fun stuff besides, like Drago!). When it came to Foreman Mike's eyes clouded over noticeably and he said with averted eyes "...…….it would be a good fight".

No, that doesn't prove much. But there's nothing in Mike's style going back even in his prime that would have made him a winner against George, whom trumpeted loudly his desire to fight him. Do I think the Foreman who went 12 with Holyfield would have beaten Mike? Sure, but for different reasons than most would offer. Styles typically make fights, and Mike was pretty much a two-handed Frazier on steroids (he also took a couple of pages from Norton...another big minus for him).

Do I think the Foreman who beat Moorer (and beyond) would have beat Mike? Naw, Mike by decision, though I'm positive he would have gotten in big trouble on the way I'm sure he would have shook up George more than a couple of times during the fight.

It's just, when we talk about prime and first-part-of-the-comeback...George would have won the title significantly earlier if Tyson had fought him, say, right around George's on point Letterman proclamation.

Seems more than a couple of people agree with me here, while choklab (despite his obvious knowledge and often really interesting posts) is kind of putting himself through perhaps too hard a sell. For the most part people just aren't buying it, for pretty obvious reasons imo. You can't get away from the fact that Mike can NOT stop coming in, only slow down. And when he did slow down, he usually kind of sucked. Even worse, when Mike got floored he was either mostly done fighting or quit in some creative way. And if no one can see Foreman flooring Mike with that uppercut...I don't know what to say.

 

So now a 41 year old spoon wasnt that bad because he came off a loss to mercer? Do you know how desperate you sound?

Put your money where your mouth is and make a poll asking if people think brians resume is equal to old foremans!

 

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Momentarily.

There was always four or five who could beat him.

 

Maybe...just not Tyson.

 

The luckiest thing that happened to Foreman in his comeback was not fighting Tyson. I'm as enamored of Big George as the next guy but he would not have survived Tyson's speed and power .. it would have been a short fight.

 

Exactly. The detractors keep ignoring the fact everyone who beat foreman had to change their style. Ali had to go the ropes and patiently wait for him to burn out, briggs and Morrison suddenly figured out how to use latetal movement and tried their best not to engage, even the brave holyfield quickly realized standing in front of foreman was suicide and to this dat regards him as the hardest hitter he faced.

Bottom line, tysons ONLY chances would be to A) land something big and hopefully force an early stoppage with his speed and combinations B) change his entire fighting style and fight backing up.

Considering tysons power and speed option A is 'possible" but not likely given that foreman never went down once in his comeback, had a tight guard, and wouldn't just stand there if he got hurt he'd go ballistic and throw heavy leather in retaliation.

Option 2 is literally impossible. As high as tysons ring iq is and how skilled he was, all he could do was come forward. His style and short arms/height demanded it.

This is an obvious example of styles making fights. No one is saying tyson has no chance, but his delusional fans ignore the obvious problems he would encounter in this matchup.

 

Super important points, but I wanted to comment on this one first. Gerry Cooney didn't quite have the overall power of Tyson in his left hook, but he really wasn't that far off, and he tried to engage George with it. Though I imagine Tyson would have weathered the resultant GF-as-falling-refrigerator storm significantly better (and think of Mike a hundred times better as a fighter than Cooney ever dreamed of being), this point illustrates that George got pissed. He got haughty and mean as hell whenever somebody slipped a solid punch in (watch when Frazier actually landed a solid hook on George in their rematch...didn't last long after that).

George also would have been shoving Mike outside, though that might have been a mistake; to me Mike's main range was mid. So George pushing him off for punching room might work more to Mike's advantage in that scenario.

 

Five guys who could have beaten pre-Moorer comeback Foreman:

Bowe, Holyfield, probably Holmes...I think Herbie Hide came later (weakish chin but that man was devastatingly fast and his high velocities hurt more than most super heavy punchers...ask Bowe).

Post-Moorer Foreman

I can't count Bowe here, as he was beginning to slip and might have found out his inside skills were nothing compared to George's uppercut. Bowe also got worse and worse defensively so no Bowe. Holyfield maybe, Holmes maybe...Lewis (post Steward) absolutely. Lewis would have been George's worse loss since Ali.