Prime Sonny Liston vs Ortiz that Wilder fought

You said that Liston fought only guys 30 lbs smaller than him. I showed you that he fought plenty of 210+lbs fighters, at least as big as him. I never compared them to Ortiz.

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Yeah, tell me that he's smaller than Liston. Wilder wasn't much bigger than Zech and he KOed Ortiz.

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He fought Liston at 214 lbs, that's more than Wilder in some fights. Who cares that he had a fight before Liston in which he weighed 196 lbs. As far as I know, 214 lbs is legit HW weight, not cruiserweight. Tell me how much smaller than Liston he was.

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Again, he's not CW and he's bigger than Liston.

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But he fought Liston at 220 lbs, he wasn't smaller than Sonny.

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But he fought Liston at almost 230 lbs. He was huge compared to Sonny.

The only one who can be argued as CW-sized but he still wasn't smaller than Liston.

Valdez was bigger than Liston and calling him CW is ridiculous, he was bigger than Ali and as big as Foreman. Ortiz is not a SHW, this division doesn't exist.

I also forgot to mention Cleveland Williams who was heavier than Liston in second fight.

What incorrectness? You said that we can't say how Liston would fight against someone as big as him. I showed you 8 opponents as big as him or bigger. I know that he usually had weight advantage, but that wasn't always the case. You literally said that we can only say how Liston would fare against someone 20 lbs lighter, that's false.
Calling fighters as big or bigger than Liston CWs doesn't change the fact that they were heavyweights. You can watch fights I posted here, Liston was shorter in all of them and often didn't have any weight advantage.

And lastly, I never said that any of fighters I mentioned are as good as Ortiz (though some of them can be compared to him favorably). I simply pointed out that you are wrong, Liston fought bigger fighters and we can conclude in some ways how he would try to fight against Ortiz.

 

It would be a war. Ortiz takes a great shot. He has excellent power. He's a southpaw. He's bigger than Liston and a good 30 pounds heavier (Wepner was nine pounds heavier and fought nothing like Ortiz).

Ortiz is wonderful at parrying and even catching the jab and he's also great at stepping inside right hands and landing a short power straight left.

Liston would have trouble landing the jab against Ortiz. Ortiz would hit Liston at odd angles. Liston had basically little to no experience against southpaws (he fought one). And Zech lost to everyone.

But I think Liston hit harder with both hands. Ortiz relies more on his straight left out of the southpaw stance.

It would be fun to watch. I don't think either guy is blowing out the other. Seems like it would come down to who could take the other guy's best shots when they were fighting on the inside. I don't necessarily see a KO either way, though. But they'd both be a mess afterward.

 

I agree, Ortiz is good enough to make Liston struggle. His southpaw stance could trouble Sonny early on and he's good, wise puncher.

I think that Sonny is too good for him, but it wouldn't be a blowout. Sonny wouldn't need to KO him either, he could outbox him as he had the skills to do so.

 

Whats that shitty bible about?

The guys I´d mention are 200-CWs, and yet had around the time Liston fought them no problem to make 200. In general, he fought about 25lb heavier than his opponents. Thats not me, ist the numbers! You rarely find any Ortiz-like SHWs with about 22X trimmed weight there. thats what I´m talking about.

For some reason, next to proving himself against 198 pounder, Liston of course "kills" big King Kong Ortiz like another Patterson...

 

I won't waste my time with arguing with you anymore. You didn't even understand my last post.

 

Biggest Liston-fapper outthere. Surprise?

 

Yes prime Muhammad was a today CW.
Later on, Ali had problems making 215lb, with an aging Clark making 205!!

Ali was in that case more of a modern HW, but not the crop of 6'4" SHWs nowadays. Liston rarely fought modern 210 HWs anyway, the couple of 20X guys he fought later in his career where XX losses boxers, too.

 

I have taken a lot of stick on here over Sonny Liston, but legacy for Legacy Sonny has too much pedigree.

Sonny really was a man who proved beyond a doubt he really was the best in the whole world. And that has to go a longer way. The guy was just seen as the best. bar none. He ruined the champion and on his way there, blitzed some good contenders very emphatically. When Liston defended his title and replicated his one round win over the exchampion nobody on earth seemed good enough to beat him.

Sonny was Not just a challenger to a low rate title like Ortiz has been. by comparison to Listons day, the WBC is a lame excuse of a championship. After all, The WBC heavyweight title, if you follow it back, isn’t worth sh!t. It is not really a championship. After Vitali retired, they somehow selected Bermane Stiverne and chris Arreola to meet for a fight to decide their champ according to them.

Think about that for a moment. Let it sink in. Stiverne and Chris freaking Arreola! That’s who they think was the best two heavyweights in the world was at that time! Stiverne wasn’t even supposed to win it.

All Wilder did was beat the winner of that fight...a fight that decided nothing... and Ortiz could not beat him!

Ortiz is a good guy for these days though, and he proved he was game against Wilder. But he should have won that fight. He is a better fighter than Wilder. But it isn’t a champion he was fighting anyway. Just the msn who beat the winner of a fight between two mediocre guys who have no connection with the notion of “worlds best”.

 

HWs back in that era actually trained to hit target fight weights and came into the ring in shape (I know, its a novel idea). Ortiz could stand to lose 20 pounds. Hes not exactly svelt and if he lost twenty pounds and came into the ring in better physical condition and without the saddle bags hed not only look like a fighter from the 1950s/60s but he wouldnt weigh anymore than one either.

 

So Ortiz is no good because the WBC chose Stiverne and Arreola to fight for a vacant title five years ago?

What the hell does that have to do with anything? (LOL)

This is a match-up between Sonny Liston and Luis Ortiz. Their styles. Their skills. Their positives and negatives.

 

Who exactly has Ortiz beaten to be given a 50/50 chance with Liston?What are his 3 best wins?