Prime Sonny Liston vs Ortiz that Wilder fought

Liston was a minimum of 36 years old when he stopped Zech,probably around 40.

 

Tbf Ortiz was around that age then. This fight couldve taken place circa 59

 

But Ortiz didn't win and Sonny did!

 

That's nice. And Luis Ortiz was a minimum 36 when he beat Bryant Jennings.

But Luis Ortiz isn't Zech and Bryant Jennings wasn't Liston.

I've explained this repeatedly in this thread. Ortiz is great at parrying and catching the jab, which would negate Liston's first weapon. Ali took Liston's jab away and it threw Liston off. Liston relied on landing the jab to set up his other shots.

Liston had a great left hook and a right inside. Ortiz has a great straight left on the inside. Ortiz also lands his right hook at odd angles from the southpaw stance, and it's very effective because conventional fighters can't defend against it very well.

Ortiz was a better all around fighter than Wilder, but Ortiz got knocked out by arguably the best puncher the division has ever produced. Liston got knocked out by guys who weren't the best puncher the division has ever produced.

I don't think either guy likely gets stopped. I think it's an inside war. Liston would have to make it that because Ortiz would take his jab away. Seems like a bruising 10-rounder.

I think it would be a great fight.

Neither guy ever went 15, so if it was scheduled for 15, let's say a heavyweight title fight, who knows what would happen. Liston was busted up by some guys, like Marshall and Martin, Williams and Ali. Ortiz isn't prone to cutting.

 

Ortiz wasn't in prison for years tho, or fighting top guys like Patterson, Machen, Folley, Williams or Valdez

He never faced a jab remotely on a level of Listons, and Ortiz paws a lot, Liston would force him right back and get him on the ropes. He'd deal massive damage here

Liston was arguably 40 by the first Ali fight. Ali was far quicker than Ortiz and he used his speed and footwork to move out of range, Ortiz is no where near as fast and has pretty slow and basic footwork

Ortiz throws a southpaw right hook he opens himself up to Listons right and left hook, no one trades hooks with a prime Liston and wins bar George Foreman

Joe Louis > Wilder
Not in terms of Power but as a puncher (speed, accuracy, selection, Power, structure and angles) Wilder isn't even top 5.

Not in his prime, Ortiz is no better than Cleveland Williams or Floyd Patterson both did pitiful against Liston

Ortiz definitely gets stopped and early. Especially if it's an inside war, and if it's not then Liston jabs his way to a clear UD

Wilder would've beaten him earlier had he had an ounce of boxing knowledge

 

And Jennings is his biggest scalp! Ali beat Liston with his legs, he wasnt there for the jab to land.
Ortiz is nothing like Ali he is slow and plodding.
Liston has been in the fire against DeJohn and Williams and come out the winner the first time Ortiz fought a banger he was stopped his resume is very shallow. Liston got a broken jaw against Martin and lost a split dec.Williams busted his nose and was kod,Martin stopped an ancient Liston, Liston wasn't busted up by him .Ortiz is an old man and still unproven he's best nobody of any consequence! ****ing Bryant Jennings whoop de ****ing doo! Just beat by a novice, top 30 at best!

 

Yes The WBC title is no good because the WBC chose a nonsense selection in Stiverne and Arreola. It proved nothing. All it proved was Wilder is a champion of Stiverne.

And that has everything to do with world levels.

Regardless of how one man fights compared to another the biggest criteria has to be levels. It has to be about levels too otherwise your only talking about what guy you like the look of.

This is a match-up between Sonny Liston and Luis Ortiz. Their styles and Their skills come AFTER their level of class. As you say we must discuss Their positives and negatives.

If one guy actually demonstrates world domination that is the positive. If the one guy loses to the guy who Has the “Stiverne” championship that is a negative.

I cannot stress enough that the WBC heavyweight title is a bogus line that stems from mediocrity rather than anything to do with elite level competition. No world class men have fought for it since 2012.

 

I feel like anyone who says Liston jabs his way to a win has never actually watched Luis Ortiz fight, or you're so jaded against Deontay Wilder you think everyone he's fought is a joke.

Take the "Hate Goggles" off for two seconds.

Before Luis Ortiz does anything, he takes away a guy's jab. Ortiz's right hand is usually a couple inches from his opponents jab so he can immediately parry it or move away from it. Or he catches and blocks it and then immediately fires his straight left power shot from the southpaw stance.

He's one of the best at taking away someone's jab. And Liston based his entire attack on the jab.

It's one reason why Wilder had success against Ortiz, because Wilder doesn't jab much, so it turned into a pot shot contest.

Here's Ortiz against a conventional heavyweight with quick hands in Monte Barrett. Barrett was past it here but look what Ortiz does when Barrett jabs. Look what Ortiz does before Barrett jabs. His right glove is only inches away from his opponents' jab hand.

You guys study so much "TAPE" of PIONEERS and you like to point out SUBTLE NUANCES that people don't notice. Yet you somehow study NO TAPE on current boxers and seem to be totally oblivious to the fact that ... Luis Ortiz is a master at taking away a guy's jab.

Do your homework.

Liston wasn't going to jab his way to anything. If he outpointed Ortiz, it would be because Sonny won the inside war.

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Oh FM! Just what we need another Houdini!

 

Here’s the problem I have. What level are the guys who he takes the jab away from?

This stuff is not universal just because he did it at one level.

The footage you show to demonstrate this includes a washed up monte Barrett who lost a third of his fights. This is not convincing enough to make such a claim.

 

No he just hasn't fought anyone good.
It's not just me and it's not my fault but his best opponent is a 75% Fury and he didn't even win.

I have. I have seen enough to know that Liston out jabs him.

Take the love goggles of and see reality
Were taking a top 10 HW of all time and a top 5 H2H staple vs an old yet unproven contender

Yes, but I'll repeat he never faced a jab remotely as good as Listons

I know this, but my point still stands, he never faced a jab a tenth of Listons

Because it's a top 3 HW jab.

No he's not, Ali was one of the best, Lewis was one of the best. Ortiz isn't even the best now, Fury is
See his fight vs Wlad, textbook example of how to do this, Ortiz doesn't do this any where near as well

Wilder doesn't jab because he forgets about it. He'd be better if he had consistent jab

Monte Barrett was never any good, 43, in his last fight and coming of a KO loss. He may have been quick but it's pathetic to even mention him with Liston

Barretts jab isn't a % of Listons...

You do realise that Ortiz has a shorter reach than Liston, by 6 inches, Liston forces his ramrod jab in Ortiz's face and there's **** all Luis can do about it

He's not a master at anything (aside from ducking title shots worth millions) hes good at a few things, but a master at nothing
Wilder is a master at setting up his money punch, Fury is a master at taking away his opponents best tools, Ortiz is not a "master" at anything

Liston outjabs any HW today, he smashes through Luis paws and wins a comfortable UD when he wants, or he trades and KOs him horrendously

 

Here's Liston against the only southpaw he fought. Zech didn't take away Liston's jab, Zech just moved away from it (to Liston's left) and Liston still had a problem landing. Liston misses the right hand terribly over and over even in the HIGHLIGHT reel, because Zech was moving the wrong way. And Zech's still cracking him with hard lefts (even though Zech was bad).

Ortiz would've posed so many problems for him.

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Spewing Wilder hate in a Ortiz-Liston thread.

I'm done talking to you. IGNORE.

 

You brought him up, not me.

Go on cop out you know I'm right, Liston > Ortiz

 

To those that doubt that Ortiz is good, just watch the footage. He's a solid, clever boxer with power, TBH I thought he'd take care of Wilder's hash - and he nearly did, if he'd been younger I think he would have. Liston's pedigree is certainly way above Ortiz' pedigree, and while I do favour Sonny, the guys predicting a blowout haven't thought about this matchup in a realistic manner at all. I think Ortiz might trouble a lot of people, and not just Liston.