Rocky Marciano vs Joe Frazier

By that I mean that they were huge and athletic with legit skills. Fury and Bowe would also qualify.

 

I always grasped the concept like you do the ABCs that a fighter can be great & limited. You meant "fact" not "fake", but it is not a fact-it remains a matter of argument, not an uncontestable objective fact, how much use & effectiveness of the non-dominant hand qualifies as "one handed".

It is always a matter of interpretation unless a fighter lterally never uses, or does not have, another arm.

That being said, ****ey clearly qualifies to me, Frazier it depends upon what standard of volume & effectiveness you demand of a fighter to call him one-winged.

More one handed than most does not necessarily qualify for the term, just as several inches taller or shorter than average does not necessitate a term like midget or giant. Folks like me are not remotely reluctant to tell it like it is, but may not agree-or like me say it is close enough that it depends how you define an ambiguous term with no objective single definition-whether he is called one handed or not.

Sure he was limited in some (many? debatable) ways by using the left less.
But it is a dramatic understatement to say he was more effective than others who use more punch variety. Even absent his Olympic Gold, most have him top 10 in effectiveness & career, & almost all at least top 15. So he was more effective than 99.9 + an indeterminate # of 9's thereafter of pro fighters.

Ali had somewhat more limitations & is considered near or at the very top in effectiveness & head to head comparisons. Because of the strengths he had, & the way he compensated to limit the harm from all his deficiencies or even made them work for his. Deficiencies in parrying, blocking, inside fighting, no great KO punch, ill advised defense such a leaning away from punches...& whatever else I forget.

It is a wonder he could even beat Humpty Dumpty!
We will agree that ability is not just adding up #s of skills, dominance in some areas & compensation can make you better than almost anyone occasionally.

 

Bump

I got Joe by stoppage, I think his Defence is too savy. Whilst Marciano's trying to club him he's slipping and moving whipping his hook into his ribs and lashing his ears with them. Rocky defined heart, he wouldn't quit, he wouldn't take a knee, he'd always get back up, but Joe would keep on beating and beating him.

I think that Rocky would be throwing Gazzele hooks only to be ducked and tied up and then inside there's only 2 HWs I'd pick to beat Joe (Louis and Bowe, although Holyfield, Marciano and Dempsey are nearby). Marciano's Suzie Q would be an issue but I think Joe could take it, he'd be avoiding most of them anyway. I think with the constant pressure he'd consistently hurt Rocky and slow him down before he executes him

Joe Frazier TKO14

 

Let me put it this way. If it got to round 14 there's only 1 winner and that's Marciano.

Frazier would have to get him early.

 

Nah. No one gets stopped early here, I'd pick FoTC Joe to outlast and badly beat up a non moving target who can't out muscle or over power him

 

Frazier is the clearest example in terms of hwt champions of a one handed fighter. You need to understand what that term means in boxing terminology. It DOES NOT mean the punch is unused or lacks a level of power. Joe’s lack of coordination between both fists and his over-reliance with his hook are the obvious indicators. Plus the fact he never knocked any opponent down with his right hand.

Regarding Frazier’s well known issue with slow starting hear Ken Norton’s comments prior to the start of Ali Frazier 3 as well as Don Dunphy (Norton was a commentator)

Here is an excellent video that outlines Marciano’s skills:

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Jeez. If that outlines his skills, I'd hate to see one picking out his faults.

I really don't think much of these videos and tbh, Perry, I'm surprised that one so knowledgeable as you puts any store in them either. They take a moment in time and put whatever words they like to accompany it in favour of their hero.

For example at 10:35 I see a man attempt a wildly amateurish swing , miss and stumble off balance but the commentary suggests this is all part of the masterplan, a genius move that sees him shifting his weight from his back leg to front. What happens is he swings wildly, jumps in the air in doing so, misses widely and carries on his momentum so he can drop the nut. If he'd ever fought Holyfield they'd have had to use gloves for their heads.

Twice he misses with a right fling against Louis and is fortunate that Joe was only a fraction of what he had been because Marciano is wide open for a left hook. One moment discussing the skill of the man notes that when an opponent backed off Rocky went forwards. F**k me. The man was a pioneer of the sport.

I think one of the reasons Rocky divides opinion so much is the blind love of video makers like this who attribute qualities that he never had.

Rocky did have qualities and I wish his fans would focus more on these rather than trying to force us to spot skills he didn't have. Freddie Brown never said he was skilled and he was his trainer. What Marciano was was effective and used his unusual strength for his size, determination, stamina and heavy hands incredibly well to navigate his way unbeaten through an admittedly weak division, one in transition, at the time.

Rocky himself didn't think of himself as being especially skilled. When asked how he kayoed Walcott, he didn't talk about feinting jabs or drawing lead rights. He simply said "I trun da right den I trun da left." And it was enough for everyone except the hero-worshipping videomakers who have manipulated moments in fights to bestow skills on the man that he neither had nor, given his record, needed.

 

Goldman was his trainer, Brown was the cut man brought in specifically for the first Walcott fight.. Good post BTW.

 

You’re wrong.

Did Marciano throw wild punches at times? Certainly.

Did he also have excellent defensive abilities. Absolutely. To believe anything else is not supported by what you see on film. Marciano could parry, feint, block, bob and weave AND kick an opponent out with one punch from either fist (unlike Frazier). The amateur does not see these skills in regular motion so a slow motion analysis shows everything quite clearly.

Moore and Walcott were very vociferous that they would beat Marciano all over the ring. IN the ring both fighters were looking to counter Rocky all night, some got through but you see both men looking to hit Rocky with counters and he was just not there. Marciano with all his power and aggression was “cute” in there. Lots of subtleties. Watch and learn.

 

TIL, Marciano could kick opponents with his fists. I've watched a lot of great fighters but none of them could kick with their fists. Marciano KO1. You're a true student of the game Houdini.

 

Knit picking spell check errors just shows YOUR ignorance.

In actuality I was a huge Frazier fan back in the 70’s. Cheered for him in his every bout from Ali 1 to Jumbo Cummings. However I am interested in historical truth. I don’t care about a fighters color, nationality or any other non boxing related topic. Marciano was Frazier’s superior technically. Just the fact that Rocky had TWO equally capable fists puts him in a different league that Frazier.

Don’t believe me? Ali stated so himself. Ali stated Marciano was better than Joe Frazier.....and he was.

 

I've got it from a good source that Willie Pep almost retired after seeing Marciano's defensive excellence. What was the point to continue when someone did so much better that upon which he based his entire reputation?

Can you blame him?

 

He would never had beaten the FOTC Joe. And he would never have beaten Ali

 

In the early 1960's, the Andy Griffith Show became wildly popular in the US television market. Set in an idyllic mid-southern town named Mayberry, American rubes went hook, line and sinker for the nostalgic, white-washed rendition of small town, rural Americana. So entranced, so ignorant, so myopic they were, that hundreds annually tried to book vacations to this municipal vestige of the past, to literally travel to a fictional town whose narrative engaged them so deeply. They could not do the simple compartmentalization of separating a television show from reality.

The fact is that people were rubes back then. Their popular opinions were largely moronic. They were easily played pawns of the media, victims and largely their own executioners.

Take that mindset for context when reading the tall tales of Marciano, his punching prowess, his "monastic" training regimen, his cunning defensive work, his 300 pound punching bag, all the tired, repetitious tropes of this modern day gladiator... The truth, I fear, is somewhat less than the legend.

 

You're right. My bad. It was Goldman who said that he was technically deficient but that he was scared to show him anything too complicated in case it disturbed the winning formula. From Liebling's 'The Sweet Science.

Nice to see you back, btw. You old dog.