Your HW top 15 ATG’s

H2H all-time top 15 - part 1

Further detail on my H2H positioning and rationale and some significant revisions as well. Borrowing from someone else's idea - W/L against each fighter in the list in brackets and itemised list showing individual results.

1. Muhammad Ali (11-2-1)
Holmes - D
Foreman - W
Louis - W
Lewis - L
Liston - W
Holyfield - W
Tyson - W
Vitali K - L
Bowe - W
Wlad K - W
Frazier -W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

His toughest fights, win, lose or draw, would be against Holmes, Louis, Lewis, Vitali K, Holyfield, Marciano and Frazier. I think fighters like Frazier and Marciano always give Ali a hard fight. He showed he could handle pure punchers so Liston, Foreman and Tyson he would beat. Louis' well-rounded attack would push him all the way and the very best of the modern super heavies, Lennox Lewis, much as it pains me to say it, might beat him.
Holmes would be neck and neck with him all the way - a split decision either way would not be a surprise so I made it a draw. Frazier and Marciano have the style to beat him too I think but I picked Frazier to do it.

2. Larry Holmes (11-2-1)
Ali - D
Foreman - W
Louis - L
Lewis - L
Liston - W
Holyfield - W
Tyson - W
Vitali K - W
Bowe - W
Wlad K - W
Frazier - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

Holmes loses to Louis, Lewis and Vitali but he doesn't have an easy time with any of the other 14 and he might even lose more. He had tremendous recuperative powers, similar to Ali, so he finds a way to win in most cases, even against the big punchers. Would have loved to have seen prime fights against Marciano and Frazier.

3. George Foreman (10-4)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Louis-L
Lewis-W
Liston-L
Holyfield-W
Tyson-W
Vitali-W
Bowe-W
Wlad K - W
Frazier - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

I'm sure Foreman could win in any era. If a
a 40-plus version could pick up the title,
the 70s prime version couldn't be bossed by any of the super heavies so I think they'd have tremendous difficulty with him. I pick him to beat Lewis for example. The guys he might struggle against would be the cuter fighters on this list like Ali (we already know how that turned out) and Holmes. The one other guy I have him losing to is Liston because he might be the only guy who could physically intimidate Foreman.

4. Joe Louis (10-4)
Ali-L
Holmes-W
Foreman-L
Lewis-L
Liston-W
Holyfield-W
Tyson-W
Vitali-L
Bowe-W
Wlad K - W
Frazier - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

Louis beats everyone except Ali, Holmes, Lewis and maybe Foreman. I think one of the big punchers - Liston, Foreman or Tyson could potentially get him out of there early and I've gone for Foreman to do it. I don't think that makes Foreman greater but just edges him ahead on this list.

5. Lennox Lewis (10-4)
Ali-W
Holmes-W
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Liston-W
Holyfield-L
Tyson-L
Vitali-W
Bowe-W
Wlad K - W
Frazier - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

Joint 3rd but loses out on head to head against Louis and Foreman. He's not near the top because he was 6'5 with an 84" reach. He's near the top because he was 6'5 with an 84" inch reach and could fight. Probably the only guy on this list I'd pick to beat both Ali and Holmes but I'd also give Holyfield and Tyson the edge over him prime to prime.

 

H2H all-time top 15 - part 2

6. Sonny Liston (10-4)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Foreman-W
Louis-L
Lewis - L
Holyfield- W
Tyson-W
Vitali- W
Bowe-W
Wlad K - W
Frazier - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

In terms of aura, there aren't many more intimidating fighters in boxing history than Sonny Liston. He had the size, strength and power to hang with any heavyweight in history. His best was probably before he became champion and the late 50s, very early 60s version would have been a hard task for any heavyweight that ever lived. He's the only fighter I can see being capable of intimidating the likes of George Foreman and Mike Tyson. I think he'd beat them both, although each would be a titanic struggle. The only fighters I can see edging him are robust boxers like Ali and Holmes and the best of the super heavies. He'd make mincemeat of anyone pre-1960.

7. Evander Holyfield (8-6)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Lewis-W
Liston-L
Tyson-W
Vitali-W
Bowe-L
Wlad K - W
Frazier - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

Nobody but nobody would have an easy night against Evander Holyfield. He showed that he could tough it out with the biggest and best of his era, even when past his prime. The 91/92 version would be a tough ask for anyone here. I had to assume a loss against Bowe and logically he should lose to Lewis but the version of Holyfield who fought Lewis was way past his best. The '92 version could beat the best version of Lewis in my view. The '92 version of Holyfield might well lose to '88 Tyson, although he'd inevitably go out on his shield but the '88 version of Tyson never met an Evander Holyfield, a guy who instinctively wouldn't be intimidated by him. If he could hang on through the early onslaught, he'd beat him. And I fancy him to do just that.

8. Mike Tyson (8-6)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Lewis - W
Liston-L
Holyfield-L
Vitali-W
Bowe-W
Wlad K - W
Frazier - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

Mike Tyson was probably the most dangerous heavyweight through the first four rounds of a fight in history. If height and reach were the only factors in h2h, he'd lose to nearly everyone on this list, but he had a blend of speed and explosive power that had never been seen before so if he got to you early, it was almost certainly over. It takes a special kind of fighter to survive that onslaught, but this list has plenty of them. I debated whether or not he woild beat Lewis and decided that he probably would. I also debated whether he would beat Louis and decided he probably wouldn't. I'm sure that the best versions of Ali and Holmes would make it through as far as the middle rounds and then start to work Tyson over. I figured Holyfield could tough it out too. For the majority though, it would be a short night's work for Iron Mike.

9. Vitali Klitschko (7-7)
Ali-W
Holmes-L
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Lewis - L
Liston-L
Holyfield-L
Tyson- L
Bowe-W
Wlad K - W
Frazier - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

A hard one to judge because other than the Lewis fight, he never met a heavyweight who could really challenge him. I can seem him pushing some of the very best on this list, including the top 2 and even edging victory against Ali. But I can also see him come unstuck against fighters who you might think he should beat. Probably the hardest to rank on this list.

10. Riddick Bowe (7-7)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Lewis-L
Holyfield-W
Vitali-W
Liston-L
Wlad K -W
Tyson-L
Frazier - W
Wlad K - W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

H2H Bowe could be much higher on this list but you have to take the fighter as he was, not based on his potential. At Championship level, which is what we're dealing with here, he only reached that potential once, his title-winning effort against Holyfield. But he's lower than Holyfield on this list because he couldn't match Evander's consistency. Win, lose or draw, Holyfield would be there, ready to fight whereas Bowe was rarely in good fighting shape after 1992. He'd win some through his sheer physical talent but he'd lose some because of his aversion to training - a 50% winning record against the greatest of heavyweights seems more than fair.

 

H2H all-time top 15 - part 3

11. Wladimir Klitschko (4-10)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Lewis-L
Liston-L
Holyfield-L
Tyson-L
Vitali-L
Bowe-L
Frazier-W
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano-W

Given size and dominance, Wlad is another one who could be much higher but I can't get past that chin. If fighters like Ross Purrity, Corrie Sanders and Lamon Brewster could knock him out, then I think most of the great punchers here would flatten him. Like Lennox Lewis, he became a better, more well-rounded fighter under the tutelage of Emmanuel Steward who had provided the blueprint for rebuilding a super heavyweight's career. But until his overwhelming size becomes a factor against the smaller fighters on this list, his major frailty would continually expose him.

12. Joe Frazier (4-10)
Ali-W
Holmes-L
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Lewis-L
Liston-L
Holyfield-L
Tyson-L
Vitali-L
Bowe-L
Wlad K - L
Charles - W
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

I love Joe Frazier. I think he has the single most important win in heavyweight history and that goes a long way to making his reputation. If I was picking the 10 heavyweight fantasy fights I'd most like to see, he'd be in at least three of them and my no. 1 pick would be a fight against Rocky Marciano. But I think he'd struggle with most of the guys on this list. His style we know was all wrong for Foreman. I think it would be all wrong for Liston and Tyson too. The biggest and best super heavies - Lewis, Bowe and Klitschko - would almost certainly be too much for him as well. Fights with Evander Holyfield and Larry Holmes would be epic and I can see him pushing both all the way, but I still pick them to edge it. However, he beat Ali when it mattered most and he would have given The Greatest trouble at any point of his career. Styles make fights and Frazier's style was made to give Ali nightmares. And in that epic duel with Marciano? I have Smokin' Joe just edging it.

Ezzard Charles (2-12)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Lewis-L
Liston-L
Holyfield-L
Tyson-L
Vitali-L
Bowe-L
Wlad K - L
Frazier-L
Johnson - W
Marciano - W

Charles was probably the greatest light-heavyweight of all time. He was also probably past his very best when he won the heavyweight championship in 1949. His biggest win was over Joe Louis in 1950 - had that fight taken place against a ten-years-younger Louis I don't fancy Ezzard's chances.

He was still a brilliant fighter even if past his own peak and 5 years after winning the title he still gave Rocky Marciano all he could handle. Prime for prime, I pick Charles. But like any small heavyweight, I think he'd struggle to handle many of the super heavies on this list even though he had the skills to give them all problems for a while. A 2-12 record doesn't do him justice but this was not the weight that truly makes his reputation so that's some comfort.

Jack Johnson (1-13)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Louis-L
Foreman-L
Lewis-L
Vitali-L
Holyfield-L
Liston-L
Tyson-L
Bowe-L
Frazier-L
Marciano-W
Wlad K - L
Charles - L

The Galveston Giant was indeed a giant by turn-of-the-19th-century America's standards. And even forty years after losing the title I can see Johnson having the size and skills to handle most heavyweights up to that point. From the 1960s onwards, I just can't see him beating any of the best champions. A solitary win over Rocky Marciano is the only win I can add to his ledger.

15. Rocky Marciano (0-14)
Ali-L
Holmes-L
Foreman-L
Louis-L
Lewis-L
Liston-L
Holyfield-L
Tyson-L
Vitali-L
Bowe-L
Frazier-L
Wlad K - L
Charles - L
Johnson - L

Putting Marciano rock bottom with the inverse perfect record of 0-14 seems ironic when he never lost a fight in his career but Marciano made the H2H list ahead of another great, Jack Dempsey, because I saw no way that Dempsey could compete with the guys who came after him. I could be vastly underrating Dempsey H2H and I could be doing the same here with Marciano. We'll never know so it's just an argument I'm putting forth. Marciano deserves a place in the top 5 heavyweights of all-time and he owes that to his perfect record and retiring unbeaten as a champion. The great names on his record (Louis, Walcott, Charles, Moore) were all past their best when they met him and Walcott, Charles and Moore gave him hell. I can't imagine prime versions of any of these fighters losing to Rocky. And then as you move from the 50s to the 60s and 70s it starts looking worse and worse for Marciano. He was a product and beneficiary of his time and his status on all-time lists should not be penalised because of it. But H2H is never going to benefit The Rock.

 

Bawhahaha, Louis had his hands full with all the top boxers he faced, and was too easily floored by some guys who would not even be in the top ten today. If Schmeling could hit him once, and Louis not being able to shake it off, he's meat vs, the bigger skilled super heavies who not only could out box him, but had more power than Schmeling.

But okay, see the post below for my picks. I'm giving it a range for my picks. Upsets always happen, and not everyone on the list took a good punch.

 

Lewis
Clay
Holyfield
Louis
Holmes
Tyson
Wladamir
Foreman
Marciano
Jack Johnson
Vitali
Bowe
Frazier
Dempsey
Liston


Using Oakland Billy Smith's list here's how I would call it. I'm going with a best guess range.


Holmes 11-3 to 10-4
Clay - 11-3 to 10-4
Lewis 11-3 to 9-5
Vitali 11-3 to 9-5


Wladimir 8-6 to 6-8
Foreman 8-6 to 6-8

Holyfield 7-7 to 6-8
Liston 7-7 to 6-8
Tyson 7-7 to 6-8
Bowe 6-8 to 5-9

Louis 5-9 to 4-10
Marciano 4-10 to 3-11
Dempsey 4-10 to 2-12
Frazier 3-11 to 2-12
Johnson 3-11 to 2-12

 

Mendoza, very interesting lists, a _lot_ of thought, and I find the rankings generally plausible.

Q: Did you mean to leave Jack Sharkey out of the 1926-1945 list?

 

H2H : Is wladimir better than Vitali ??? How ? Considering W. klitschkos' poor performances against decent tall fighters (Sanders, Fury,Joshua) .Wk never beat a decent tall guy. The bum Wach was his best win against tall fighters.
Your list proves the boxing isn't an ideal sport for you.

 

Once again, how old was Wlad vs Fury and Joshua. 39 and 41. So keep acting like they count. Wlad did beat top ten ranked taller fighters. Pulev and Thompson come to mind. You must have missed those fights, right?

 

Anybody who mentions 180 pound guys like Rocky Marciano and 170 pound guys like Gene Tunney can't be taken seriously. Anyway in no order Evander Holyfield, Larry Holmes, George Foreman, Lennox Lewis, Joe Frazier, Mike Tyson, would in that top 15.

 

Thanks. Leaving Jack Sharkey out was an oversight. I'd place Jack Sharkey #7 or #8 from 1926-1945. If I get the time, I might extend the list to 20 names per era.

Comparing different era's can be tricky as the rules, the number of rounds supplements and surgeries have improved over time. I feel stafisted with the timelines placed.

 

I think Fitzsimmons, as a heavy, gets badly written off these days. In his heyday the guy was a terror.

 

Don't you have Wilder in the top 3?

 

1. Muhammad Ali (5)
2. Joe Louis (10)
3. Lennox Lewis (1)
4. George Foreman (2)
5. Larry Holmes (8)
6. Wladimir Klitschko (7)
7. Joe Frazier (9)
8. Sonny Liston (3)
9. Evander Holyfield (11)
10. Jack Johnson (N/A)
11. Mike Tyson (4)
12. Rocky Marciano (4 below 200)
13. Jersey Joe Walcott (5 below 200)
14. Ezzard Charles (3 below 200)
15. Jack Dempsey (7 below 200)

HMs- Ken Norton, Riddick Bowe, Floyd Patterson

 

No? When have I ever said that?

 

Nvm I do but that was a joke list