After the Keith Thurman upset, is Manny Pacquiao a greater fighter than Muhammad Ali?

Go play with Pimp C his intelligence level is on a parr with yours. He claims to be from The Hood in Houston Texas but ask him where The Heights Boxing gym was in Houston ?? He dont know lol

 

This is not the case with me. At all. I call it how I see it. So I call complete BS! on your assumption. You should know by now that although I don't like FlIVd I dont let that influence my opinion of him as a fighter. The same way if Manny had beaten an injured FlIVd in their fight id say the same thing and I wouldn't give Manny much credit for it. I give FlIVd credit for the win but it didnt mean much by the time it happened. If there is a rematch and Manny KOs FlIVd it'll mean absolutely NOTHING! I call it how I see it no bias as much as you'd like to believe otherwise. We just see it differently because you are a FlIVd fan and are letting your bias influence your opinion instead of looking at both their careers objectively

 

Upset? Keith Thurman didn’t win.

 

That's a hopeless hope.

 

Pac is right up there with Ali but here's the difference, Ali didn't refuse any challenge. He would have fought the rematch with Horn and would have gladly accepted Spence's challenge. He truly was a champions champion.

 

Pacquiao is greater than Ali in terms of what he has done inside the ring.

 

No, just no. It's nothing like it actually. That makes no sense.

 

Wasn't that Pac doing the Ali shuffle? That right there ought to say something. Ali was an innovator. He started at heavyweight and ended at heavyweight. He fought all comers at that weight, no matter how big or small. He had no where to go but down. There is no doubt in anybody's mind that if his body would have allowed him to go down, he would have been successful for as far down as he could go. His skills dictated that. So it makes no sense in trying to use that against him. However, Pac's accomplishments are just as impressive as Ali's but no better. Here is where the separation takes place and that is in stature. Ali played on the world stage. His stature is bigger than Pac's in that aspect. Ali coined phrases, and invented or re invented moves that are still being used. There is no Pac shuffle or rope a dope. His fights are not remembered simply by the name, like The rumble in the jungle or the Thriller in Manila. Ali was no senator but he was an ambassador and he has sat at the table of Kings and Queens and had audiences with some of the most powerful people in the world. I will put it like this, if Ali and Pac would have been fighting at the same time. Pac would be fighting in Ali's shadow.

 

It's absurd to compare a HW to a Flyweight champion. That is what is absurd. If you're going off of who has beaten more top fighters in or around their prime then the obvious answer is Pacquiao has. His resume is superior.

 

Maybe, maybe not. Ali was always going to be more popular because he is a HW, American, and spoke the native tongue. If we’re measuring greatness let’s also measure the challenge and the unlikely probability that someone will achieve something, and achieves it anyways.

Pacquiao was a malnourished teenager right off the poverty-stricken streets of the Philippines. With nothing but guts, desperation and talent he decides to become a boxer later in his teens. By the time he was 16, he turns pro, lies about his age and puts weights in his pockets just to meet minimum weight.

Who could have predicted that this little boy with no background in boxing, no protege or boxing lineage, speaking not a word of English, which is rare even for a Filipino, will one day win 5 lineal championship belts in 5 weight divisions, win 8 across 10 of them, become a global sport star, become one of the most loved athletes ever by his people, so much so that rebels and the army would have a ceasefire during his fights and traffic would stop. With all the odds stacked against him.

The guy took a fight against 1 of the top guys in his division with 2 weeks notice and boy did he seize the opportunity. Now he’s a senator of his country, speaks good enough English and the most popular fighter in the world today.

Ali meanwhile was a US product, an Olympic gold medalist, naturally very witty and fast with his mouth, fighting in the most prestigious division.

Ali’s path to becoming an icon was just so much easier in comparison, it was a clean straight road. Sure there was racism along the way but that never stopped people from supporting fighters, look at SRR. A year into Ali’s pro career, this gold medalist, if someone was to tell you he will achieve what he achieved, you probably would believe it or won’t be in complete disbelief. If someone told you that a 17 year old Pac was going to achieve what he will achieve back then, you would have slapped them for being delusional.

Defeating insurmountable odds is greatness, and that’s exactly what Pacquaio has done.

His story is fckin unbelievable if you were to just look at it with fresh eyes and not have grown up with it.

 

See this is the problem when too much value is placed on a HW simply because it's the heavyweight division.
No it's not the same as the Foreman win, but there's also nothing in Ali's resume that can eclipse MAB x 2, Morales x2 and JMM x 2.
When has Ali given up so much weight, height and reach advantage to fight boxers that will outweigh him by nearly 20lbs on fight night?
The thing is, Ali always had the speed, reach and physical advantage against his opponents, more often than not (until he aged of course).
When you look at the 5'5" Pacquiao demolishing opponents that are 2 weight divisions above him, all the while giving up reach and age advantage (sometimes by more than a decade), almost always punching up instead of straight because of the height differences, defeating Ledwaba on a 2 week's notice, you start to understand why he belongs in the same sentence. And again, he's turning 41 and just unified a belt in WW. WELTERWEIGHT. How many times have you heard that in this too low a weight class?
And if you extrapolate the data, there is absolutely nothing in Ali's resume that equals the Thurman win. He retired at 39. Duran at least has the Barkley win. But he was still a young 37 at the time. Pacquiao is turning 41. FORTY FREAKING ONE. You all may be too young to not understand how difficult it is to even get up in the morning at this age.

Definitely Ali still ranks higher than him, but to dismiss Pac's accomplishments outright simply because Ali was a HW, that's too much shortsightedness.

 

Ahh the Thrilla in Manila. Damn that was a humid day even for the locals. And for Ali to get back up before the fight was called when he was barely able to even breathe, that was greatness.
Thrilla in Manila greatly highlighted was Ali is cut by a different cloth, similar to Jordan's flu game.

That aside, Ali is an American in an American world dominated era (err okay the Vietnam war was a mess up, but yeah), that is a big factor there too I reckon.
Fame wise, I think the closest that it can come to Ali's was Tyson's.
But you got to admit, in this era and age of the younger generations being pretty much couch potatoes and with the amount of sports to choose from and heck to participate in, Pacquiao is doing a good job at still putting boxing on the map.

 

This is a really hard comparison to make but I'll try.

1-Pac competed and won belts in multiple divisions, but he was never undisputed in any of them. Ali was the unified champ 3x and was too big to compete at the nearest weight class of light heavy so theres an asterisk* here. Hard to compare but I give Ali more credit for clearing out his division twice and pacquiao never came close to doing that. The whole point of a sport is to see "WHO IS THE BEST". If you dont always fight the best opponents available then you're simply "one of the best" in that weight class. Ali fought damn near everyone for nearly 2 decades. On the other hand, you have to give Pacquiao credit for being a smaller man moving up 8 divisions and being the only man to do it, while Ali often enjoyed a size advantage. Pacquaio wins this 6-4 due to quantity over quality (but just barely).

2-competition wise I have to side with Ali. Many of Pacquiao's best opponents have asterisks*

De la hoya was past his prime and drained and lost 3 of his last 6, cotto had a catchweight, mosley was 39 and had a draw and a loss his previous 3 bouts. I dont give him much credit for beating margarito who had gotten battered senseless by Mosley and was drained down to 150.

I give him credit for beating #1 ranked and p4p fighter hatton as well as mexican legends barrera and morales and Marquez, as well as tim Bradley and Thurman. HOWEVER, Pacquiao couldnt convincingly beat any of these fighters convincingly and had to give it multiple attempts. Marquez always gave him problems and got the better of him in their last fight.

In contrast Ali won the majority of his fights very convincingly the first time. If he needed a rematch, he made adjustments and looked marvelous (similar to Joe Louis). Other than Cleveland Williams and Zora Folley, the vast majority of Ali's opponents were in their prime, healthy, and coming off wins. You simply cant say the same for Pacquiao who had a very carefully guided career if we're being honest.

I will say he did have a nemesis in Norton similar to Marquez who he always struggled with. And he did get a few questionable decisions like with Jimmy Young but even that's debatable (young was overly defensive and didnt throw a lot in some rounds, making them hard to score. And he did use illegal tactics like sticking his head out of the ropes to avoid getting hit). Ali wins this 7-3

3-Pacquiao has too many unavenged losses to be considered a "greater" fighter. A great fighter can make adjustments and overcome the odds, find a way to win. Ali got off the floor to win, he dominated in rematches, and he fought on with horrendous injuries (black eyes, broken jaws, dehydration, etc). The only unavenged losses on Ali's record were to Larry Holmes, a top 10 ATG when he was so physically ill he couldn't even raise his hands to defend himself and was way past his prime, and berbick a future champion when he was old enough to get discounts on city buses. He never made excuses.

Pacquiao never avenged his losses to Torrecampo, Sangsurat, jeff horn, mayweather, and has a draw with Agapito Sanchez. He has made excuses and complains about leg cramps, clashes of heads, and the infamous "shoulder" excuse which became a meme. I dont remember Pacquiao ever getting off the floor to win. It also makes it worse that his rabid fanboys will argue for 500 pages to defend their idol no matter what and won't acknowledge any defeat or bad performance. Ali wins this 7-3

4-in terms of skill, both of them were stuck in their ways and style and that's what made them unique and successful, but Ali was more versatile. Ali coild stick and move, or he could be a mid range counter puncher. He could play a defensive chess match and wait for you to get tired or go for a points win. Ali wasnt afraid to slug it out either. His main weaknesses were a lack of body punching and inside fighting (his solution was to simply clinch or lean at close quarters). Although he had excellent head movement and reflexes, he became overly reliant on them and didnt work on defense. When he became older and slower it wasnt very difficult to get around his guard.

Pacquiao was a very straightforward volume puncher/slugger and remained that way for years. There wasnt anything complicated in his gameplan, its just that he was so explosive quick and dynamic that people caved into the pressure or fought to survive, letting him fight his fight. Ironically he baceme more well rounded after the Marquez loss...guess you could say Marquez beat soms sense into him? He had better defense, used his jab more, had a better sense of range and how to position himself/use angles instead of just rushing in like a bull. It was less entertaining but it saved his career honestly.

However, being more cautious and less explosive/offensive brought its risks. Pacquiao had less knockouts and if youre a short guy with short arms moving up in weight, even if you're highly skilled fights can become ugly and it can be hard to win convincing decisions (look at the jeff horn fight). He always struggled with fast boxers and defensive boxers, but so did Ali. I'd say this is a draw 5-5.

5-signature wins and impact: there is no need to discuss impact and legacy, both were phenomenal and loved by their people and will be legends for another century. However, Ali has better signature wins and that is simply a fact. Liston 1, thrilla in manilla, and rumble in the jungle trump any individual win Pacquiao has, especially rumble in the jungle. Ali had lost 3 years of his prime and regained the championship at 32 over a younger undefeated former gold medalist prime fighter who demolished 2/3 of the best fighters in that weight class (norton and Frazier) in brutal fashion. This is the single greatest lineal/undisputed championship win in the history of boxing. Pacquiao does NOT have a single signature win tbat compares. Ali wins this 8-2.

Overall Ali was greater and its not close to be honest.