What were Julio Cesar Chavez Sr.’s flaws as a boxer, if he even had any?

Xplosive · Aug 4, 2019

88Chris05 said: ↑

Looks as if most bases have been covered already. His speed (in terms of hands and reflexes) was only serviceable, and he maybe wasn't the best adapter in a fight - but then again, when you're winning for so often and for so long, you don't need to do all that much adapting.

Oddly enough, in his early championship career as a Super-Featherweight he could be easily subdued and pushed around in the clinches, struggling to get shots off there. I say odd, because when he was a more established star and at the higher weights, he was incredibly hard to push back and tie up in close. I suspect he was always a bit tight at the weight as a 130 pounder (he tended to have a couple of his ribs too easily visible at that weight, in my opinion) and that probably played a part. He looked more solid at 135 and 140 and those weights allowed his natural strength to flourish much better - his 130 lb performances were generally a rung or two lower in quality than what he produced as a Lightweight or Light-Welter.

I also think he fought a little too much on emotion and machismo at times. Obviously, that's what made him such a fan favourite and brought plenty of success, but he actually had better technical qualities at mid-range than some seem to realise. Forgot to jab his way in sometimes in his prime years because he always wanted to put on a show and dish out serious pain. I thought his draw with Gonzalez in 1998 (a very creditable and respectful result, given the circumstances) was proof of that - he actually looked really good in that fight when he went in to pure boxing mode, which he was forced to do as his explosiveness, intensity and stalking just wasn't there anymore.

Mind you, I guess it wouldn't have made that much difference to his career even if he had used his jab more and been a shade more patient - he was never really going to beat Whitaker or Randall in or around their primes (I just can't buy in to the verdict of Randall II, sorry!), and he beat everyone else by hook or crook until 1993/94, by which point his legacy was already secured. Chavez was just one of those guys who had no obvious weakness but at the same time wasn't the most athletically gifted - so he just drilled the strengths he had and maximised them to devastating effect. His conditioning, core strength, short body hooks, chin, accuracy and shot selection were all world class.
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All good points.

Chavez never really put all his tools together as well as he did in the Rosario fight.

That performance was his apex by such a wide margin, that it can actually be viewed as somewhat of an outlier.

Xplosive · Aug 4, 2019

Tin_Ribs said: ↑

True, Pea was a rarity. There's a fair difference between troubling a fighter and outclassing them, though, which is what he did to Chavez. Chavez shouldn't be given a hard time for it but there's little chance imo that Whitaker would beat Duran by the same margin.

Duran was pre prime and going through a phase of in-ring improvement and evolution when he fought Ortiz I think. He visibly lacked urgency and didn't show the same fire as when threatened by better fighters like Buchanan, De Jesus, Fernandez etc. You can see him implementing the more tempered textbook approach and balanced counter punching that Brown and Arcel were instilling into the raw talent/aggression. Against a fighter he didn't feel threatened by and when he hadn't mastered the range of techniques he'd demonstrate a couple of years later. He didn't look his usual self, true enough, but look at how he closed the gap on Buchanan and Marcel, Fernandez too and wasn't thrown by their trickery and mobility.
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Look no further than his fight with Emiliano Villa to see how a PEAK Duran handled a southpaw.

Tin_Ribs · Aug 4, 2019

88Chris05 said: ↑

Looks as if most bases have been covered already. His speed (in terms of hands and reflexes) was only serviceable, and he maybe wasn't the best adapter in a fight - but then again, when you're winning for so often and for so long, you don't need to do all that much adapting.

Oddly enough, in his early championship career as a Super-Featherweight he could be easily subdued and pushed around in the clinches, struggling to get shots off there. I say odd, because when he was a more established star and at the higher weights, he was incredibly hard to push back and tie up in close. I suspect he was always a bit tight at the weight as a 130 pounder (he tended to have a couple of his ribs too easily visible at that weight, in my opinion) and that probably played a part. He looked more solid at 135 and 140 and those weights allowed his natural strength to flourish much better - his 130 lb performances were generally a rung or two lower in quality than what he produced as a Lightweight or Light-Welter.

I also think he fought a little too much on emotion and machismo at times. Obviously, that's what made him such a fan favourite and brought plenty of success, but he actually had better technical qualities at mid-range than some seem to realise. Forgot to jab his way in sometimes in his prime years because he always wanted to put on a show and dish out serious pain. I thought his draw with Gonzalez in 1998 (a very creditable and respectful result, given the circumstances) was proof of that - he actually looked really good in that fight when he went in to pure boxing mode, which he was forced to do as his explosiveness, intensity and stalking just wasn't there anymore.

Mind you, I guess it wouldn't have made that much difference to his career even if he had used his jab more and been a shade more patient - he was never really going to beat Whitaker or Randall in or around their primes (I just can't buy in to the verdict of Randall II, sorry!), and he beat everyone else by hook or crook until 1993/94, by which point his legacy was already secured. Chavez was just one of those guys who had no obvious weakness but at the same time wasn't the most athletically gifted - so he just drilled the strengths he had and maximised them to devastating effect. His conditioning, core strength, short body hooks, chin, accuracy and shot selection were all world class.
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That's a fine post and I think you're right about him being tight at 130, he looked a tad flat and underpowered against Lockridge and Laporte although they were both physically very strong guys who were comfortable at the weight.

Tin_Ribs · Aug 4, 2019

Xplosive said: ↑

Look no further than his fight with Emiliano Villa to see how a PEAK Duran handled a southpaw.
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I forgot about the Villa fight, X, good call.

Xplosive · Aug 4, 2019

I'd also add that Duran had a higher ring IQ than Chavez.

bbox71 · Aug 4, 2019

Tin_Ribs said: ↑

True, Pea was a rarity. There's a fair difference between troubling a fighter and outclassing them, though, which is what he did to Chavez. Chavez shouldn't be given a hard time for it but there's little chance imo that Whitaker would beat Duran by the same margin.

Duran was pre prime and going through a phase of in-ring improvement and evolution when he fought Ortiz I think. He visibly lacked urgency and didn't show the same fire as when threatened by better fighters like Buchanan, De Jesus, Fernandez etc. You can see him implementing the more tempered textbook approach and balanced counter punching that Brown and Arcel were instilling into the raw talent/aggression. Against a fighter he didn't feel threatened by and when he hadn't mastered the range of techniques he'd demonstrate a couple of years later. He didn't look his usual self, true enough, but look at how he closed the gap on Buchanan and Marcel, Fernandez too and wasn't thrown by their trickery and mobility.
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Whitaker could outclass Duran! Just look at how bad duran looked against the only other defensive specialist he faced in Benitez! Duran also didn't face many south paws, let alone southpaws with the kind of skill that whitaker had. Furthermore, Whitaker beat a Chavez who was not at a weight where he was even relatively good. Even so, I wouldn't say he outclassed Chavez; I had Chavez winning at least 5 rounds which is not outclassing in my book; at least no more than what Leonard and Benitez did to duran in their fights.

bbox71 · Aug 4, 2019

Xplosive said: ↑

I'd also add that Duran had a higher ring IQ than Chavez.
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No he didn't, where was his iq against Leonard, Benitez, and Camacho? The fact that he was more athletic does not mean he had a higher ring Iq

Xplosive · Aug 4, 2019

Yeah, how Duran fared against Benitez at 154 when he was his 30s is a PERFECT indication for how he'd fare in his 20s against Whitaker at 135....

Eddie Ezzard · Aug 4, 2019

roughdiamond said: ↑

Brilliant post. Chavez is the guy you show to an average amateur to study. Guys like Duran you show them to admire.
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It was a corker, wasn't it? To be fair your own short post wouldn't have looked out of place in there. Great analogy.

mark ant · Aug 4, 2019

bbox71 said: ↑

No he didn't, where was his iq against Leonard, Benitez, and Camacho? The fact that he was more athletic does not mean he had a higher ring Iq
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Duran was finished by the time he fought Camacho, he fought smarter in Montreal than Camacho did v Chavez, no way could Chavez have dominated Duran the way he toyed with Camacho.

bbox71 · Aug 4, 2019

Tin_Ribs said: ↑

I forgot about the Villa fight, X, good call.
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Villa ain't no whitaker

mark ant · Aug 4, 2019

bbox71 said: ↑

Whitaker could outclass Duran! Just look at how bad duran looked against the only other defensive specialist he faced in Benitez! Duran also didn't face many south paws, let alone southpaws with the kind of skill that whitaker had. Furthermore, Whitaker beat a Chavez who was not at a weight where he was even relatively good. Even so, I wouldn't say he outclassed Chavez; I had Chavez winning at least 5 rounds which is not outclassing in my book; at least no more than what Leonard and Benitez did to duran in their fights.
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Duran would have beat McGirt far more convincingly than Whitaker did.

bbox71 · Aug 4, 2019

Xplosive said: ↑

Yeah, how Duran fared against Benitez at 154 when he was his 30s is a PERFECT indication for how he'd fare in his 20s against Whitaker at 135....
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Duran was skilled enough to beat davey moore and pipino cuevos, why is Benitez different. BTW, Benitez was also moving up in weight! Ilike how you have all kinds of excuses for Duran whenever his Iq didn't figure in LOL

bbox71 · Aug 4, 2019

mark ant said: ↑

Duran was finished by the time he fought Camacho, he fought smarter in Montreal than Camacho did v Chavez, no way could Chavez have dominated Duran the way he toyed with Camacho.
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Did I say Chavez would dominate Duran?

expljose · Aug 4, 2019

He wasnt the fastest guy but he didnt have too much trouble closing the gap on guys

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