He was not "done" after the FOTC or even after Foreman I. Watch his fights with Bugner and Quarry II for proof of this.
Ali doesn't throw many uppercuts. Joe's bobbing and weaving wouldn't get him far against Liston's uppercuts.
Quarry was kinda fadeed himself. Joe adopted a totally different strategy in that bout. Joe wasn't the same fighter he once had been but I think it was for a variety of reasons. Always thought it bush league Ali used that angle.
I wouldnt say Frazier was shot. It's one thing to be past your prime, quite another to be shot. I think Joe actually started to improve after he lost the Foreman in the first fight. He started to get his desire back and had as we know one great fight left.
An actual census listing sonny at 10 in 1940 is more accurate than the hogwash from people pushing it that Sonny was over forty when he fought Martin.
[. precisely. frazier was never the same fighter. Everyone knows this. Of course he was still tough. Still had enough to beat anyone outside the absolute elite of the division but he had slipped...and his record shows this.
All the guff you've posted about his judgement of distance being gone,blind in one eye, etc read my thread on his medical condition !
He was still good and one of the best heavyweights in the world at that point but he wasn't what he was, clearly in my view. Whilst he looked good against Bugner and outstanding against Quarry, the rematch against Ellis was telling. Joe won well enough but didn't floor or otherwise badly hurt a faded Ellis at any point. Contrast that to the absolute hammering he gave a peak Ellis in 1970 to see where Joe was at that point in his career by comparison. The Thrilla in Manilla was a great war between two excellent but faded fighters. FOTC was a great war between two of the best heavyweights of all time.
In the previous census there was one less child in the Liston family. Ten years later there is an extra 10 year old boy called Charles Liston. Do the math.
