Which of these fighters does Jack Johnson have the best chance to beat

More like the green Gunboat Smith, who wasn't small and could punch a bit knocked Johnson down and out in a 4 rounds ex match when Johnson was in his prime. Are you even aware of that?!

If the KD was faked, which other of Johnson fights were faked? You tell me! The story of a fixed deal came after Ketchel's death. Understand? There was not talk of a fix after the event ended. Ketchel took a beating for many rounds and was mocked. Fixed fight don't work that way. Smith never got a title shot either! Why didn't he beat Moran and Willard?

Why I wasting time here...

 

Johnson toyed with Jeffries. Humiliated him purposefully and knocked him out after a 15 round savage and methodical beatdown.

Genboat Smith stared Johnson carried Ketchel. Could have ended the bout at any time.

O’Brien fought the only style he could to survive...he ran. He could have done well against many hwt champions including Jeffries fighting that style over a six round distance. You do know he was rated the greatest of all light hwt champions for many decades. Maybe you fo not.....

 

Tell me who are you to say an eye witness who worked in both camps as a sparring partner and sat at ringside is wrong and you, a nothing, is right? How does your opinion hold more weight?

Again your prejudice shows. Even if true why would you use a training camp incident to degrade an ATG hwt champion? What’s your point? Fanboy stuff. Grow up.

 

More ike the green Gunboat Smith, who wasn't small and could punch a bit knocked Johnson down and out in a 4 rounds expiation match when Johnson was in his prime.

If the KD was faked, which other of Johnson fights were faked? The story of a fixed deal came after Ketchel's death. Understand? There was not talk of a fix before that I ever read. Smith never got a title shot either! Why didn't he beat Moran and Willard?

 

Johnson toyed with Moran in a one sided bout.

Willard beat an old Johnson in a fight purposefully scheduled for 45 rounds knowing Johnson’s only hope would be a KO.

There is no evidence other Johnson title fights were “fake”. We do have an insider sitting at ringside at the Johnson Ketchel bout stating the bout was fixed and Johnson could have won at any time. Again who are you 100 plus years later to state otherwise? Do we believe you, a nothing in 2019, or an insider eye witness who sat at ringside and worked both camps? I’ll give you a hint...It ain’t you!

 

nothing would surprise me about johnson

 

Th Guardian 1914


PARIS, Sunday.
Jack Johnson, the negro, still holds the heavy weight boxing championship of the world. He beat Frank Moran, the American dentist, EASILY on points in a twenty-round battle last night at the Vélodrome d’Hiver, the largest arena in Paris.

It was an amazingly international crowd that practically filled the vast hall, and perhaps the most singular feature was the extraordinary number of women spectators, most of them in evening dress. Men present who had attended most of the big fights in recent years said they had never before seen so many women applauding two pugilists hammering each other.

Some of the Spectators.
Among the women were such great names in French society as the Baroness Henri de Rothschild, the younger Duchess d’Uzès, the Comtesse Mathieu do Noailles, the poet, the Princess de Lucinge, the Duchess de Rohan, and the Princess Morouzieff. Jack Johnson’s wife, wearing as many diamonds as most of the great ladies, was conspicuous.


Among the prominent men present were the Duke of Westminster, the Earl of Sefton, M. Barthou, a former Premier of France, the Marquis de Lafayette, the Duc d’Uzès, the Marquis de Breteuil, Baron James de Rothschild, the Comte de Clary, Mr. Spencer Eddy, formerly American Minister to Argentina, Mr. Alfred Vanderbilt, Mr. Mortimer Schiff, of New York, Senator Watson, West Virginia, Mr. Richard Croker, jun., and Mr. Ogden Mills Carpentier, the French champion, acted as referee.

It was evident early in the fight that Moran was OUTCLASSED. Johnson made frequent use of the uppercut with the object of knocking his opponent out. Moran’s main reliance was in active stomach punches, but he could not land effectively. What blows he did get in seemed to lack sufficient force or were blocked by Johnson, who gave a fine exhibition of fighting.

The Negro’s Match from the Tenth Round Johnson used his terrific uppercut in the most effective manner, repeatedly landing on the jaw. From the tenth round onwards it was seen to be Johnson’s match, and thenceforward, though he made several fine efforts, Moran weakened perceptibly. Moran took his punishment well. Johnson toyed with him a number of times when he saw he could do so without danger. Towards the end he had the Pittsburg man absolutely at his mercy. The latter apparently saw the end coming, and clung to Johnson’s body for support, trying at the same time to land, but without success. His manner of fighting and holding several times in the latter part of the contest was the cause of unfavourable comment, as were also the tactics of Johnson, who was several times cautioned by the referee and jeered at by the crowd. Many French spectators, who seemingly did not understand the fine points of boxing, voiced their objection to in-fighting, but cheered any resounding though harmless thwacks.

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American boxer Jack Johnson (1878 - 1946), the first African-American World Champion, July 1910.Photograph: Sean Sexton/Getty Images
Though there was throughout plenty of hard hitting on the part of Johnson, there was not a single knockdown, nor anything that looked like a finishing blow. At the end Moran’s face was bleeding from cuts on the nose and under the left eye, but Johnson showed no marks and was smiling.

 

St Petersburg Times
“Johnson beat Moran easily”

SI 1959
“It was true that Johnson was not in first-rate condition, but his superlative defense held up, and he was able to evade the dreaded Mary Ann and give Moran a severe beating without the full use of his left arm.”

Le Cri de Paris: "Johnson had a cakewalk with a fighter he probably could have rid himself of in a few minutes." This paper alleged that Johnson carried Moran because he was an owner of 2/3 of the motion picture revenue and hoped to make money by making the film longer and making Moran look good for white audiences.

Le Journal: "The Negro champion of the world dominated his challenger for twenty rounds." and "Almost from the beginning of the contest it seemed as if the fight would not last ten rounds. This was a mistake because Johnson never pressed his attack and the contest lasted the limit."

Le Matin: "Jack Johnson smiled throughout the contest, smiled openly, smiled at his seconds, and laughed at Frank Moran whenever Moran would hit him in the stomach. The public was disgusted with his exhibition." The paper compared Moran to a school boy playing the role of a general who is then confronted with having to fill the generals shoes and is ill prepared for the task at hand. It intimated that while Moran was brave he appeared to lose confidence the instant Johnson entered the ring.

Le Petit Parisien: "He (Johnson) beat Moran on points easily."

L'Humanite: "By the third round Johnson had asserted his superiority over Moran." "The match was disappointing, one is left with the impression that Moran is not in Johnson's class." "Johnson clearly won on points but he is no longer the Johnson of old."

Le Figaro: This paper also said Johnson had the fight firmly in his grasp by the third round despite it being a dull monotonous affair. "Moran did not understand that at 27 years old he must take the fight to the 36 year old Johnson." By the tenth round Johnson was in such control that the author expected him to land a knockout blow at any moment. "Defeat (for Moran) was a certainty." The paper stated that Johnson was "infinitely better than Moran" and his smiling and mocking of an opponent so inferior was beneath him.

La Sport Universel Illustre: "Frank Moran, despite all of his inferiority, despite his poor quality, will now be able to avail himself of the privilege of having gone twenty rounds with Jack Johnson." "It was twenty rounds of monotony which ended in Johnson winning his victory without having to utilize his scientific knowledge of boxing."

Most accounts mention Moran bleeding constantly throughout from his nose and that a cut above his eye affected his vision.

 

Tunney.

Thats it.

Tunney lacks the offense to bother Johnson, was much smaller, and would be forced to be the aggressor. It would look very awkward, like ali vs young. I could see Johnson winning a clear decision.

Rocky would grind and wear him down at some point. He's the perfect kryptonite to Johnson's cagey defensive clinching style.

Dempsey i would favor 60:40 but it would be a good fight while it lasts. Dempsey was the first truly "explosive" puncher and a precursor to modern evolved heavies who had speed and power. His fast starting could completely derail johnson's strategy of starting slow and conserving energy for later.

Norton might be 50:50. Hard to see either man having the power to drop let alone KO the other. They both had superb stamina and it would become a back and forth clash at ring center.

Joe would likely KO Johnson. He was the first heavy to have a modern explosive jab that could damage/range find/set up combos/etc. Johnson would be out of his element. It would be like putting revolutionary war soldiers against ww2 soldiers.

 

I disagree. Maybe he would be able to wear him down at some point late in the fight, but smaller, short swarmers who attacked the body aren't Johnson's kryptonite. He never struggled against them. Of course nobody he faced (maybe outside Langford) was as good as Rocky, but it's Rocky who would have to overcome stylical obstacle

 

Actually there was talk the very NEXT DAY after the fight that Johnson's knockdown might have been staged.It's in several contemporary papers.Including the next days San Francisco Chronicle.
"To the writer and to 90% of those who were in a position to follow closely what was happening the punch seemed to glance around the back of Johnson's head.Apparently also it had little force ,and there was genuine surprise when Johnson dropped down ,spun around on his knees with a little smile on his face."
"the writer did not see a punch that would have such an effect and it must be remembered that such an ending would be of fast assistance to the handling of the moving pictures"
"Whether Ketchel hurt Johnson when he half knocked -half shoved the champion to the floor will always be a disputed point,but the fact that a few seconds later the white man was in the land of dreams can never be disputed"
The San Francisco Call."Johnson won after reeling from a mysterious punch that fans failed to see.The champ quickly recovered and immediately finished Ketchel with a right and a left that landed flush on the jaw.
A few seconds before Johnson was down,Stan had started a wild right swing for the head.
It landed some place -nobody knows where - but as the blow was delivered Johnson staggered and reeled to his knees.He floundered
around for a few seconds and then came like a panther at bay and delivered the two wallops which brought the uneven contest to an end
Now the question is;Was the battle on the square,or did Johnson take his ungraceful stumble for the purpose of swelling the gate receipts of the moving picture shows that are to follow,or had he stalled up to this point to help the wise betters on the 15 rds end of it?"
WW Naughton, writing in the Examiner thought the way Johnson went down very peculiar.
"After Johnson went down from a punch which curved around his neck,he rose and and met Stan's rush.Ketchel fairly impaled himself on Johnson's fast flying fists and fell".Naughton again"Johnson has a habit of infusing bufffonery into his fights at times especially when he has matters well in hand".Naughton went on," Johnson fell like a clown which cause many at ringside to say it was bogus". All of them mention Johnson smiling whilst on the floor.
The Chronicle stated Johnson carried Ketchel and that he could have finished the fight much sooner than he did,proven by the fact that he was" merely saving Ketchel even to the extent of holding him up in the earlier rounds when the white man was almost falling" .
After diligent research of the fight Pollack says prior to the fight it was rumoured among the press that Johnson would fight for the moving pictures for 12 rounds and then cut loose . Johnson told friends prior to the fight not to bet the fight would end before the 10th round ,but to bet in would end before the 15th.
Johnson's pre fight prediction. Asked if it was safe to bet on him beating Ketchel inside 10rounds the champion replied.
"No.But tell them they can go as far as they like on the fifteen round proposition, [that he would finish Ketchel inside 15rds].tell them to bet I stop Ketch before the end of the 15th round.I say stop because the police may have to intervene in order to save Ketchel from useless punishment" Johnson page 282 Jack Johnson ,Pollack.
All reporters agreed Johnson could have finished the fight whenever he chose.
Willus Britt ketchels manager asked Johnson "how come Stanley knocked out O Brien but he went the distance with you?"
Johnson replied,"I'm a different kind of fighter.I am more careful than Ketchel and take my time.Besides that I wasn't in any sort of shape I weighed 222lbs then."
Now I've provided next days reports in which 3 leading newspapers expressed doubts on the legitimacy of Johnson's knock down ,,this directly refutes your talk of there being no talk of a fix whilst Ketchel was alive. That's three primary sources provided by Adam Pollack in his biography of Johnson,there are others but they are sufficient I think.
You, as per usual provided NOTHING.
So lets have no more silly talk about there not being a strong belief the fight was fixed, as in Johnson fighting under wraps and carrying Ketchel for enough rounds to make the movies saleable.God All Mighty anyone watching the film of the fight can see Johnson holding Ketchel up twice to prevent him from going down!


Smith didn't knock Johnson out in that spar ,he knocked him partially through the ropes.Accounts differ as to whether he actually floored the champion The San Francisco Call reporter watched the 4 round sparring session and did not mention a knockdown at all.
neither did the San Francisco Examiner mention a knockdown .Unlike you I have their reports .
The San Francisco Evening Post said Smith floored Johnson with a right overhand chop.Far from being ko'd Johnson fought two other sparring sessions after his 4 rds with Smith against a L A lightweight and Johnny O Keefe a middleweight ,Johnson went 2 rds each with them.
If you had taken the trouble to do some research on the subject you would not keep making a fool of yourself by repeating these false allegations.
Ill answer your inaccuracies on the other Hart topic here if I may. Nobody knows whether Johnson was robbed of a victory against Hart.
Pollack is inclined to believe racial prejudice played a big part in the decicision.George Siler the top referee of the day called the vedict ,"a very strange one". Many said Johnson was entitled to,
"at least a draw"
We know Johnson won the first half of the fight handily, badly marking up Harts face and that at the end of the fight Johnson was unmarked whilst Hart looked like he had been put though a meat grinder.
Alec Creggains excused his decision by saying Hart made the fight ,he was always the aggressor while Johnson was content to sit back and counter.Did Hart's aggression in the second half of the fight, when Johnson did little entitle the white man to the verdict? We will never know. What we do know is Hart would never fight Johnson again despite repeated requests from Johnson to do so.
As to your assertion that Johnson was near to being stopped by Battling Jim you were quoting an AP report by a paper that did not have a representative present.
Here are more accurate reports ."During the first three rounds he was obviously playing with his opponent.After that it was observed he was only using his right hand.When the fight was over he complained that his arm had been injured.Doctors who made an examination certified a fracture of the radius of the,left arm.The general opinon is that his arm was injured in a wrestling match early in the week and broken during the fight" " Los Angeles Daily Times,Omaha World Herald,New York American Dec 20th 1913. I have round by round reports from Le Matin,The Daily Mail,The London Times.
You have an anonymous AP report from a guy who was not there. Give it up fella, you are being humiliated by several posters here.
ps Many thought Willard beat Smith ,Willard was having his 18th fight, Smith his 53rd.

 

Jeffries said he wasn't surprised O Brien survived the 6 rounds, he said it was very difficult to catch an elusive smaller guy bent on survival in such a short time.

 

Ketchel did not "nearly ko Johnson" ringside reports say Johnson went down with a smile on his face I posted them here on this thread.Neither was he tko'd by Smith it would be impossible for it to happen as it was a sparring session and Johnson boxed a further 4 rds two each with different sparring partners. Do some research for Christ Sakes!

 

Bump because I would like a response to my points from Mendoza.

 

Which fighter listed below does Jack Johnson have the best chance to beat?

In order:


Gene Tunney
Ken Norton
Jack Dempsey
Rocky Marciano
Joe Louis