Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

A lot of people who say that it was a weak punch, that Liston wasn't hurt are also people who've never been in a pro or amateur fight and taken a serious punch. The punch Foreman flattened Moorer with didn't look like much but it was a damaging blow.

 

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Watch the fight. He says it. Lip read if you must.

 

Where does Sports Illustrated say that? In their article from immediately after the bout they give it as "Get up and fight, sucker!"

https://www.si.com/vault/1965/06/07/607743/muhammad-ali-sonny-liston-second-fight

 

So just...stay down until he does the count?

This doesnt explain why he got up if he was throwing it!

 

I didnt know he was about to do that ? I've never heard that mentioned in any theory regarding his death . Is that info on the level? Thanks

 

Yes fight 2 was a fix.
Yes there was a punch .
There has to be some kind of a punch to go down from even in a fix ( unless its Bruce Seldon).
Getting knocked out or down is an involuntary thing , Listons movement on the floor was not involuntary, he was like a man who couldnt decide which side of the bed was most comfy.
What confused the issue was Ali running around and the ref losing control .
I think in all the confusion Liston decided to get up and with Ali shouting at him, I think for a few moments his natural instinct to fight took back over.
Who knows what wouldve happened if it had gone on.
You CANNOT fake somebody's first instinctive reaction and Ali's was to shout at him ' get up you bum' , Ali knew !!!
Case closed.
All that anchor punch crap came later from the likes of Dundee etc.

 

Absolute garbage.
Don King wasn’t involved in either of the Ali v Liston fights.
Ali’s performance in the first fight is actually one of his most underrated. Did you see the state of Liston in his corner when he quit? He was busted up and beaten.
If the fix was in for the 2nd fight then Ali obviously wasn’t in on it, have you watched Ali’s reaction when Liston goes down?
He gestures for Liston to get up yelling something like “get up ya bum”
Nobody was more surprised than Ali when Liston went down.

 

I think you're missing the point or maybe I'm just not explaining it well.

Liston went down. Wether the punch was legitimate or not (strong enough to drop him) is irrelevant. The facts are that he went down, fumbled around, then eventually got up. It is completely illogical for Liston to get up, take a fighting stance, and continue fighting Ali if his goal was to take a dive.

And if he wanted to make it more convincing why not just stay down? And why not go down again when they continued fighting? Either way its illogical. Was it poor officiating by Walcott? Yes. Did Liston act overly dramatic after the down? Yes. But it makes no damn sense for him to get up if a fix was in. It also makes NO sense fot Ali to stand over him yelling and wasting time when the ref is trying to administer a count.

If this was a fixed fight, then clearly the people involved had the worst communication skills of all time. It was for the freaking heavyweight Championship of the world with millions watching.

Personally i think the punch was legitimate but Liston was more embarrassed than hurt and did not want to get humiliated again chasing Ali around swinging at air or getting stopped. Its obvious walcott and Ali were oblivious of any foul play because they seemed as shocked as everyone and did literally the opposite of what youd do while trying to fix a fight. Either Liston quit mentally or it was all legitimate. A rigged fight makes no sense.

 

Gordongarner....that is what I have read throughout the years. Also saw it on the television once. Not a good idea to announce in advance that you are about to spill the beans on things. people that knew Liston said he was one of those guys that had a great fear of needles.

 

If you watch Liston after the stoppage as he walked near mid ring...he staggers.

Listons trainers stated in his dressing room after the fight with no one around he asked for smelling salts. They stated Sonny never asked for smelling salts before.

As Ali’s punch lands Listons head and jaw jerks and his lead left foot is lifted off the canvas.

Listons legs appear to spasm as he rolls onto his back.

The Sports Illustrated article tells the tale. Eye witness expert testimony of those who actually saw the punch land.

 

Maybe a better question would be was the ref in on it too ?? I'd say yes. After Liston gets up Ali throws 3 or 4 punches none of which land and the ref jumps in ??

Ali is still the greatest regardless, the first fight was legit and all the other legendary wins on his resume prove that but yeah the Liston rematch was not on the level.

 

The first part of Liston's fall seems natural enough; Ali clips him as he;s leaning forward, and Liston goes over onto his hands and knees. So, I think the KD itself is legit. After that...Who knows?

 

That was one of the stories going around back in May 1965...

 

I'd stake my life on it

 

At the time NOBODY bought the idea that the fight in 1965 was legit...fighters....newspaper writers...everyone thought the "fight" was a fraud!!! Even Clay yelled"Get up and fight...nobodies gonna believe this!!!" Right after the "fight"...Ali told reporters that he really didn't know if he hit Liston. He told Nation Of Islam minister Abdul Rahman that he thought Liston,"Laid down"
Sonny told Mark Kram of SI:"That Ali is crazy...I didn't want anything to do with him...and the Musims were coming to Maine...who needed that? So I went down...I wasn't hit!" Regarding the first fight in Miami in Feb.1964....documents released to the Washington Times in 2004 thru the FIA ...show that the FBI suspected that the fight was fixed by a man named Ash Resnick. He was a Las Vegas figure connected to organized crime & Sonny Liston. The documents shows that Ali was not involved in the purported scheme. We went and saw the "fight" on closed circuit TV in May 1965...everyone was yelling "FIX!!!".