Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

Gerry Cooney is on record as stating that no way would that punch knock Liston down and keep him down.

You only have to look at it. Ali didn’t even put any of his weight behind it, it was an arm punch FFS.

 

False. Patterson absolutely did not.

 

We've been through this. No one can find a contemporary source which claims that Ali said those words. They give it as "Get up, get up", "Get up, you bum" or "Get up and fight, sucker!"

 

Here is an expert talking about the ko punch.
". That punch jarred him.It was a good punch but I don't think I hit him so hard he couldn't have gotten up" Muhammad Ali

Here's another."I can tell you what happened there.Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch.I was down but not hurt,but I looked up and saw Ali standing over me." Sonny Liston.

And another."I saw Liston's eyes.They were the eyes of a man faking".George Chuvalo.

" I think Sonny gave that fight away",I don't know whether he was paid,I didn't see the money.If he was paid to lose,I don't know.I don't know what went on .But I really do,that's my belief and I told him" Geraldine Liston .
"This much I do know,despite the fierce opposition to my belief. I've watched those film replays over and over.
Liston charged and missed ,charged and missed,charged and missed,ad infinitum.Ali's right hand was cocked high,and on one of those lunges where Liston was totally off balance,Ali chopped straight down with his right hand,more of a push than a punch.
I believe he did indeed make contact.It was not the Hammer Of Thor,but rather more like tag in the playground,where "you're it".Liston was so far off balance he had nowhere to go but down_ and that qualifies as a punch.
Ali stood over him screaming."Get up ,sucker. Get up nobody will believe this!" Jerry Izenberg who was ringside.

 

I think it was the Great Unfinished Fight. Liston was ready to go after the canvas.

But I still see Ali stopping him, probably within the next several rounds. And this time stopping him.

 

Watching the knockdown again...is it just me or does it indeed look as though Ali stepped in/followed through with that right hand? You can see the right leg come in some...though that could have been a product of sidestepping.

Ali definitely had his shoulder and hip aligned with the punch. Reminds me a lot of some of the sneaky punches he hit Foreman with, especially toward the end.

Liston couldn't have seen the punch coming. At first it looked to me like he was knocked down, took a break while waiting for the count (as many fighters do), and just followed Walcott back onto his feet. Just surprised and taking advantage of the quick rest. The thing that negates that idea is how SL was still obviously kind of out-of-it when he got up, unless that was the natural equilibrium-screw that many fighters get once they actually come off the canvas.

Sonny was doomed anyway. Too bad we couldn't have seen Ali really get him, because I'm positive that's what was on the way.

Of course, I could be wrong about any and all of this.

 

I think the people whom tried to go on television and declare that it was a punch that couldn't crack an egg ended up with egg on their faces. Watch Liston's head and body move when the punch lands. There was some solid force behind it.

But again, I opine it was an unseen shot.

 

Good post.

 

Well Futch, Sharkey and Louis certainly ain't no mugs either.

 

It was an arm punch. Sure there is a lot of debate both sides but that's beside the point - you said those thinking it was a fix didn't think the punch connected - this is blatantly false.

When are are gutting this fight to the n'th degree it is a big detail.

Liston did just fine considering he was supposedly hurt and he was facing possibly the sharpest heavyweight of all time.

Again events such as this we need to try to get on the same page with factual events. "Proceeds to put his guard up and then the fight is called" is a long long way off the mark. We've seen crazy things pop out already like Don King was involved. These parts are easy to get right.

I get so much more from the place than that. Sure you will see some clashes and stuff but that's a small part of what is going on. There's some great posters in here and reading such precise summations and predictions from guys like Chris and Tin Ribs (who never get involved in this so called Ego or superiority thing) among others is well and truly worth the price of admission.

 

Read the SI article. It was not just these four individuals. Those sitting in proximity to where they were sitting had no dispute as to the validity of the punch and KO. It’s one thing to be at the fight. It’s quite another to be sitting in a position where one specific punch could be viewed without obstruction.

 

“Immediately after it landed, Floyd Patterson, seated at ringside in the most advantageous position to see the blow, said, in answer to a direct question: "It was a perfect right hand." José Torres, the light heavyweight champion, agreed. "A very strong right hand," he said. Indeed, for all those who had a good view of the punch—and, unfortunately, there could not have been more than 1,200—there was never any doubt as to the stunning power of the blow. it was perfectly delivered against an opponent who was moving toward it, so that the effect was of a head-on collision.”

 

Liston after the fight:

“I didn't think he could hit that hard," he said, oddly cheerful. "But I couldn't pick up the count. I think," he added, apparently unaware that it was he who first resumed fighting after the knockdown, "I could have continued if I had picked up the count."

 

He said he couldn't pick up the count because of the noise and the fact that the referee wasn't counting over him so how the **** could he be expected to pick up the count in such circumstances?

 

Jose Torres also said he didnt know if the punch was strong enough to floor or ko Liston. Patterson was in no better position to see the action than Joe Louis,Jerry Izenberg,or George Chuvalo, stop guilding the lilly !