Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

I'm not sure anyone ever claimed that Ali and Walcott were in on the fix. Why would they need to be in on it? In fact it would probably raise more eyebrows if they were in it on.

By the way I'm not saying it was a fix - I'm just saying that there would be no need for Ali or Walcott to be on it. The only people that would have to be in on it would be Liston himself and whatever group wanted it fixed (mob, black muslims, or whomever).

 

Nothing wrong with this

 

Ok I guess I'm unclear what you mean by "moved in Liston's favor". Do you mean that it made Liston a larger favorite or a smaller favorite?

If it made Liston a larger favorite - then that would actually mean people were betting Liston right before the fight not Ali. So to me that makes a fix less likely.

Or are you trying to say that the gambler would get better odds on Liston late because all of the sharp/fix money was on Ali and it moved the lines down? If that is the case- then that could be evidence of some type of fix.

 

Sonny Liston in an Oakland courthouse in California, re-applying for his licence.

Boxing Commissioner "have you heard the words tank job? Liston, "no".
Commissioner" In the water?" Liston, "No"
Commissioner,"take a dive"? Liston ," Oh,you mean the Lewiston fight ? Yeah I can tell you what happened there
Ali knocked me down with a sharp punch.I was down,but not hurt,but I looked up and ali was standing ove rme,now there is now way to get up from the canvas that you are not exposed to a great shot.Ali is waiting to hit me the ref can't control him.I have to put one knee and one glove on the canvas to get up". Notice the underlined," down but not hurt". Ferdie Pacheco,with Howard Cossell in the courthouse.The Fight Doctor page76.

 

Liston was favourite in both fights

 

It's actually easier to pull off a fix with both fighters aware.

In case you didn't notice, Ali was NOT happy with liston's performance. If a fix was Liston/the mobsters' intention Ali ruined any chance of convincing people by shouting "no one will believe this!". A less competitive, opportunistic athlete would totally accept the unexpected knockdown.

 

Even if he did say that - that doesn't mean Ali himself was in on the fix. In fact it could mean that he realized it then and there - but only after Liston went down easily. That could explain such a hasty reaction, and why the competitor Ali was agitated by the knockdown.

If Ali were in on the fix - I would suspect he would say nothing of the sort so that it would not draw any extra attention to himself. The man was not stupid.

While it is certainly possible Ali could have been in the know - I'm really struggling with the idea he would have needed to know anything. It's one more person that could talk later on. Why involve Ali, when all Liston has to do is fall down and get counted out. Just let Ali fight like he's in a real fight. There really would be absolutely zero NEED for him to be in on it.

 

That doesn't answer my question. I know Liston was the favorite. But the post stated the line moved late - and I was wondering which way it moved.

Like if Liston was a -260 favorite at fight time (I think that is right but not sure) - was the line -300 the day before the fight? -400?

Or was it -150?

 

LOL

You have been shown to believe in the Easter Bunny and Tooth Fairy! You don’t have any facts to back up your beliefs. Suggest you not be so quick to believe in conspiracy theories. They are for the uneducated.

 

I would be astonished if Ali had an inkling what was going to happen.
Similar to jack Johnson making an arrangement with Ketchels manager to carry his boy for a few rounds to increase the viability of the movie rights.Stan wasn't in on the deal, he was trying his best to knock Johnson's head off.


My contention is it was a decent punch that may have been hard enough to floor Sonny ,but certainly not hard enough to keep him on the floor.its interesting that Sonny never denied he could have gotten up in fact he said he wasn't hurt by the blow.

 

Ferdie Pacheco in Ali's corner heard Ali shout at the prone Liston," Get Up You Bum! No One Will Believe This!"
So obviously Ali wasn't convinced the punch was enough to ko Liston
LIston himself said the punch did not hurt him and he said it in a California courtroom.
Directly after the count Ali told his brother," he laid down".Now why would he do that if the punch was legit?
So what is your response to that? I have verified quotes ,you have your own opinion and nothing else .I hate to break this to you but ,your opinion doesn't carry that much gravitas here! Principally because you are just about the most smug, self satisfied,condescending poster on this forum!.
NB I'm no Einstein, but I'd match my education, and my knowledge of boxing against yours any day.

 

Agree with all but the genuine flash KD. Liston uses his arms to break the fall. A fighter who has actually been hit hard enough to go down would not have the wherewithal to do that.

 

I'm sure its in one of my books but TBH I'm drinking a decent Rioja ,and I'm ****ed if Im going to wade through 300 or so boxing books to find a particular piece of info.

 

Liston was the 13-10 favorite at fight time.

 

How does one produce a private quote?
My pops and Ali were good friends and talked about it several times. Ali said it wasn’t fixed. And that Liston didn’t take a dive.

There are many interpretations to what Ali may have said to Liston on the night of the fight. Perhaps he was just amped up, who knows. What I know is that Hoover; with the relatively supreme power he had, couldn’t find a thing, despite his desperate attempts. Ali in private said Liston didn’t take a dive.

That’s good enough for me.
I’m sorry if this doesn’t quench your manic episode, but I think that’s your problem and not mine. You clearly have your mind made up, and will twist any and everything to suit your agenda. You show zero signs of having a conversation, you’re just ready to battle anyone who disagrees. So good luck!