Which of these fighters does Jack Johnson have the best chance to beat

Why, I have the facts, you pick and choose what you like from books, some of which have errors.

In this corner " And he'll never forget it " Smith talking about the punch that knocked johnson silly.

N.Y. Times, Johnson dazed down and out with his manager halting the ex match in 1909.

I'm too busy these days and hardly log in during the weekdays to bury the 100's of excuses you offer to absolve performances from Jack Johnson. I told them to you already 100 times Mcvey. You ignore the facts, go off tangent, ect...

Johnson never fought the best as champion ad struggles quote a few times. Smith might have been Johnson best title opponent, but he was a good fighter for a while and wasn't picked for a reason.

 

You did not answer my question. Which other fixes was Johnson in?

Hired people in boxing ( sparring partners or cornermen ) can be full of with excuses. For example, Bob Armstrong said if Jeffries fought Johnson as planned in California, he'd win. Do you but that one too? By your logic, we have an eye witness here. See how silly your opinions are? Probably not, but the others reading will.

 

Again you show ignorance. Smith worked BOTH camps. He would spar with Johnson in the AM and then with Ketchel in the afternoon. He was an insider and he sat at ringside. He stated the bout was faked. Do we believe Smith or YOU 100 plus years later? You tell me.

Where is your evidence that any other Johnson bout was fixed?

Why are you hell bent to degrade an ATG hwt champion thought by many as the greatest ever for decades? Why the obsession? Because he destroyed your man Jeffries? Grow up.

 

1.Johnson was not ko'd by Smith.
2.Johnson was not tkod by Smith,this cannot happen in as sparring match.This has been pointed out to you literally dozens of times.
3.Smith never claimed that he ko'd Smith in Heller's In This Corner or anywhere else.
4.Johnson sparred 4 rounds with two other partners after the Smith 4 rounds spar
5.The NYTimes did not have a reporter present when Johnson and Smith sparred ,they copied a wire service brief.
6.There is zero evidence that Smith was avoided as a contender by Johnson ,indeed Johnson frequently named him as a prospective opponent.
7.Smith's brief window as a credible opponent lasted around 14 months, from May1913 when he beat Willard,until July 1914 when he lost to Carpentier, then his balloon was burst by defeats to supermiddle Carpentier and by a devastating ko by Sam Langford after which as he said himself ,I was never the same man".
Here is Smith's taped interview on the Johnson KD episode.I'm happy to post it because nothing in it says Johnson was kod or tko'd and ,unlike you I have respect for the truth,But absolutely none for you.

"I got over to the Seal Rock House and Jack Johnson put on the gloves and that's when they begin to think I was something because I hit Jack on the chin and knocked him through the ropes and damn near out of the Seal Rock House."

Several reporters who were there covering the sparring session did not even mention a KD in their despatches and I named their papers in my earlier post.

You have no facts ,only an abiding hatred of a black fighter whose social behaviour you deplore to the point of obsession.
I know it and so does everybody else here.
When called to provide proof of your assertions you either ignore the requests, or come up with the same old excuse,
" I'm too busy to post them these days".You're not too busy to post your lies are you?
You are not only a compulsive liar, you are a coward who runs away when confronted with his lies!

Lets see if you are too busy to answer my 7 points,we both know you can't deny them ,just as we both know you weren't even aware Johnson sparred an additional 4 rounds that day
I provide documented proof ,You provide nothing but an irrational hatred of someone you never met.
You would be considered just a sad individual if you weren't so poisonously eaten up with this manic hatred.

 

Can it Mcvey, Smith did in fact floor Johnson and have him dazed to the point where his manager halted the bout. Call it whatever you wish, I call it a TKO when one guy can't fight back.


Smith was probably the 1st or 2nd best of the " white hope " boxers from 1912-1915.

Consider the following credentials and ask yourself did he deserve a title match vs. Jack Johnson.

1909. TKO's Jack Johnson in a 4 round exhibition match. Johnson down in the 4th, his manager halts the action.

From 1912-1915 Smith was a top contender beating the following fighters:

Frank Moran - Selected for a title shot with Jack Johnson and based on the surviving footage looked about even with the champion.

Jess Willard - Ko'd Jack Johnson for the title in 1915. Smith beat Willard giving up a lot of weight in the process.

Sam Langford - While there is a dispute as to who won this 12 round match, there is no dispute that Smith belonged in the ring, and Sam at the time was likely the #1 or #2 contender. Johnson once signed to meet Langford as champion but quickly backed out of it.

Fireman Flynn - The same guy that Johnson won via DQ in a title match, Smith TKO'd Flynn.

Tony Ross - Not very good, but went the distance with Jack Johnson in a title match. Smith TKO'd him.

^^^^ So, Gun Boat Smith defeated four men that Johnson gave title matches to, and had better results! He also has a win over a prime Langford, whom Johnson ducked for years as champion.

Why was Smith never selected for a title match? " And he never forgot it " Quoted from the book In this Corner by Gunboat Smith referring to the punch that had Johnson seeing stars.

 

Johnson agreed to carry Ketchel for several rounds,he made the arrangement with Willus Britt, Ketchel's manager.Ketchel going a few rounds obviously increased the value of the movies of the fight for which Johnson had a percentage.

.Many fighters have carried opponents.Langford routinely did it, Abe Attell did it,Robinson let several guys go the distance.Charles did it with Louis
Ali let some opponents go a number of rounds so he could fulfil his predictions.

Its different from a fix, so what exactly is your problem with it? Other than that it involves Johnson?lol
In1914 Smith had 9 fights winning 6 of them 2 of his wins were over lightweights Blackburn and Thompson.He was beaten by Langford ,Carpentier and Levinsky that year, after which he was no longer a contender.
You are trying your utmost to stretch Smith's purple patch so you can accuse Johnson of ducking him, sorry it wont work! Smith was on the way down after 1914!Here are his own words.
" In1914 I began to slip .After I fought Langford and Willard,I begin to slip.I lost that certain something,I wasn't right," GunBoat Smith taped interview March 1970!
NB Johnson signed to meet Langford BEFORE he became champion, on September16th 1908 actually .The fight to have taken place at the National Sporting Club Covent Garden London.on or about Feb the 22nd 1909. Johnson's purse was to be a miserly £1000 with 1/3rd of any movies made.
God knows you've been corrected on it over a dozen times
So why do you insist on repeating this lie?
Witnesses and co signatoriesJohnson's manager Sam Fitzpatrick, and Peggy Bettinson chairman of and matchmaker for the NSC.
He won the title on December 26th 1908.

The Sydney Bulletin 17th September 1908. page 589." Jack Johnson The Rise"
Adam Pollack. Why don't you buy it learn something about the subject you compulsively lie about, and stop making a **** of yourself?
I suppose it's become a habit! lol
You can call Johnson being floored a tko or whatever you want, the facts are
1. There are no decisions rendered in sparring.
2.Johnson sparred a further 4 rds with2 more sparring partners.
3.If every sparring session was halted when the main fighter went down and tko decisions given Rocky Marciano would not be 49-0-0 ! because Toxie Hall left hooked him and dropped him when sparring with him for the Cockell fight and the action was halted and stopped for the day.

For example Vitali Klitschko would not have just 1 defeat on his resume ,he would have 3, because after being dropped by Travis Walker and Reynaldo Butler his sessions were called off! But you carry on lying, it obviously makes you feel happy and comfortable.
with yourself.
Just be aware nobody is being fooled!

 

Actually Smith sparred with Ketchel once,he was then told he was not suitable . Some one suggested he try his luck with Johnson and he remained in the Johnson camp for the duration of the training and till after the fight.

 

You lie, are caught in it, then change the topic.

Your comments prove you are hear to degrade Johnson not provide objective evidence.

Being knocked down in a sparring session means nothing. Zero. Zip.

Smiths interview in 1969 was very conclusive. The KD was faked. Period. No chance it can be taken any other way. KETCHEL May have never forgotten the KO blow that leveled him but since the KD of Johnson was faked by Jack there was nothing to forget.

Many contenders through the years never received title shots especially in those days.

Johnson dominated Langford and this is well understood and admitted to by Sam’s own manager.

Johnson totally dominated Flynn and Moran. Completely one sided contests based upon the VAST majority of eye witness accounts. You pulling outliers and posting them as factual again shows you rather twist history than show histories truth. This alone destroys any little credibility you have remaining which is not much. Grow up!

 

And Smith never koed Johnson. By his own words he knocked Johnson down for approximately FOUR seconds.

 

Fighters say lots to things. Doesn't mean they are true. Langford says he had Johnson down and hurt. Are you buying that one too, or are you just going to cherry pick the quotes that suit your agenda? The NY Times clearly says Johnson was down and dazed vs Smith and Johnson's manager had to halt the action.

And do you agree that Smith should have been given a title shot? You never said.

I'll repost it for you to reply:

This content is protected

This content is protected

 

If Smith KNOCKED OUT Johnson he would have stated as such. He didn’t. He stated specifically that Johnson was down for four seconds.

Langford’s manager stated that Johnson DOMINATED Langford. Sam never came close to knocking Johnson down. The fight was one sided. All as per Sams own manager AND eye witness accounts. Sam was taken to the hospital after the fight. Johnson unmarked.

 

Lots of fighters may have deserved title shots. They sometimes don’t get them especially in those days. Again more meaningless tripe.

 

Fighters generally have little input as to whom they face in the ring. The decision as to who gets a title shot is far far more complicated than the simple arguments you try to make.

Fights are made based upon public interest, finding a promoter, potential for the highest purse, potential for the highest gate. As one can imagine these dynamic take huge precedence over YOUR simpleton argument. In Johnson’s case the complexities multiply adding enormous prejudice against him, his exodus to Europe.

I don’t let emotions cloud my search for historical truth. Unfortunately that’s all you do.

 

Johnson was a careful, tentative fighter, liked to tie up his opponents and fight on the inside. He liked to grip his opponents arms, trick them into thinking they could hit him and using that opening to land hard punches. Norton and Louis were physically stronger than him, he wouldn't have been able to bully them like that while Marciano's work rate would be too intense the guy never stopped punching for 15 rounds. Dempsey and Tunney might have been interesting opponents but Dempsey's bob and weave style had never really been seen before and a larger, slow moving Johnson could have easily fallen victim to his explosive savagery.

 

I'm asking you if you think Smith deserved a title shot from Johnson or not. It's a yes or no question, can you give the answer?

I think the results, plus the ex match say yes, he did deserved a shot.