Is Andre Michael Ward An ATG...???

based on what? Achievement or your belief in his ability?

Can't see how anyone who knows the history of the SMW division could have Ward in their top 3? But if you don't know the division and can only go back a decade or so, maybe.

Many would have (and rightfully in my opinion) Calzaghe as the top SMW but just below him and look at the resumes of Eubank and Ottke in the division.
But go further and look at some of the other fighters who were there...

Just take for example Steve Collins who at SMW had 2 wins over Eubank which ate bigger wins than any Ward had at SMW and 2 wins over Benn, add in Seillier which was also a very good win.



So are you basing it on resume for the division or ability?
Remember the S6 era wasn't an overly strong SMW era

 

IMO -- yes and without question.

 

One of the two or so best 168'ers ever. Kovalev rivalry at 175 he bested solidified it. He retired as P4P King to boot. He is definitely an "All Time Great" though nobody is trying to put him in the class of Greb or Duran.

 

Am I some kind of total sick freak for thinking Froch and Kessler both rank above Kovalev in terms of greatness/skill/accomplishment? (I see that is what this thread mostly devolved to)

 

No
I think it comes down to hype and opinion.
Kovalev is getting alot of hype for beating Yarde because it was a decent fight but before the fight many considered Yarde a massive underdog who many felt could get stopped early.

I think Kessler may be greater p4p with wins over Mundine between reigns as a SMW champ, Beyer who was a 3 time WBC champ and reigning champ at time, WBA champ Siaca, Lucas when world rated and former WBC champ, future undefeated SMW champ Sartison, World rated Andrade, former European champ Hassler and when faded and with eye problems beat undefeated WBC champ Froch and after that WBA champ Magee which was when faded
So I think Kessler may well be.

With Froch I think some may view it that way but I am not one of them. Froch had a fair few wins that seem to be debated and people forget that Groves was really British champ when they fought it's just that it is hyped and became controversial also

 

Good post. Ward is not great. Just an overachieving mediocrity, who won by cheating here and there.

 

I can understand low blows happen in decent body attack offences but the end of their 2nd fight still bothered me, it ended on low blows executed by Ward, then he wins the fight. I hated it personally, it tainted the win. It’s a shame because ward did some decent work in that fight as well. Anyway I’m seeing from my own point of view, I can appreciate what you are saying as well.

 

Based on achievement. I remember the super middleweight division very well and it’s inception. Also I’m a big fan of Steve Collins I remember being the only one of my friends to pick him in his bout with Eubank. He often doesn’t receive the credit he deserves for beating both Eubank and Benn twice apiece. But Collins missed out on Roy Jones and had several losses including to Reggie Johnson.
Ward has pedigree with an Olympic Gold Medal. He then has numerous wins in the division against prime or near prime fighters. Kessler, Abraham, Froch are 3 excellent wins. Chad Dawson was a big name and still top 10 p4p on paper when he returned to the division - although the weight loss was evident and hurt his performance.
Ward was p4p number one and undefeated something not Many can claim in the divisions short history and not for as long as many use it as a stop gap to light heavy.
Yes the division was better in the 90s with Toney, Jones, Benn, Eubank, Collins but Ward cleaned it out.
Having said that I think Kovalev handled him easily at light heavy in the first fight. Also I don’t believe Ward would be undefeated had he come along in the 90s but Ward usually outperformed expectations so you never know

 

Kovalev is better than both. Although Froch resume is close.

 

Without doubt, yes

 

I decided to inquire with you CST as opposed to the other, loosely labeled, gentleman on this thread. As shocking as it may sound I lean towards you being the most objective (within a cohort of posters I deem somewhat to extremely biased) however slightly that may be.

While reading some the comments tarnishing Wards systematic dissection of Kovalev in the rematch, I wondered, do neutral fans truly believe the result of this match was determined by 1-3 negotiable low blows?

Over the weekend I sat back and streamed a couple of bouts, one truly caught my attention. Prospect Luis Feliciano versus Genaro Gamez, I figured the whole PR vs Mexico vibe would be enough justification to convince the wife it was a highly touted match up. Now, I realize posters like yourself and possibly @mirkofilipovic have a strong level of discontent for Ward, your motivation for it may vary, still there’s no denying his extraordinary ability to self preserve and win. Despite the uncomfortable level of super troll presented in these threads I can’t help but think there is some integrity left with some posters. Those posters who have the aptitude and willingness to separate their predispositions and favored fighter prototype should definitely chime in.

Back to the Feliciano vs Gamez fight. Not unlike many other televised bouts that I’ve seen, during the intros a legal threshold was established highlighting the entire height of the belt line. Nothing arbitrary about the established ruling and just like in the Ward versus Kova fight that belt line was hit. The salient difference between the two bouts, other than the obvious pedigree being displayed, was these two prospects bypassed the interpretable body blows and continued to work like determined, goal oriented fighters should.

Question: Although I thought Kovalev was putting in the more consistent work (I had Kovalev up by one round at the time of the stoppage) it was clear Ward was fine tuning his timing of the overhand right and even dropping in a left hook to counter Kovalev’s sniper like jab. Was effective work being done outside of the body attack?

Question: I believe around the 5th round Ward landed two body blows that voluntarily or involuntarily forced/compelled Kovalev to turn his back, cringe and complain to the referee. This, in my empirical view, was the pivotal moment of the fight. Do you have a more substantial moment? Based on the cadence that was being established by Ward what was the crescendo point? Was Wards win more reflection of his patience and effectiveness or was the victory obtained through utter and unquestionable thievery?

One of the most intriguing stats propagated from the rematch would be Wards +10% delta with power shots landed when compared to Kovalev. It reaffirms my belief that Ward was more comfortable in the rematch due to his greater knowledge of the fighter. His blue print was not focused on banking rounds with activity, it was more keen on breaking Kovalev down via methodical offensive; his mind was set on ultimately stopping him.

Constructive responses are appreciated, however, not required @LeftRightDownThePipe

 

na it wasnt betterin the 90s, just more availab le in the UK because they were trying to create a new market to profit from when boxing went to sky.

if it hadnt been available and had simply gone to sky and more the US market ,it would have thrived better, and guys like eubank would never have had such long reigns.

but i agree stevie C was the best euro SMW.

 

He's a lower tier atg along guys like Calzaghe.

 

I wouldn’t let the suggestibility of others influence your personal ability to form different scenarios of the fight and it’s outcome. Many fans already went into the fight with a chip on their shoulders.

The ending was seemingly counter productive for Ward, maybe he was cheated from a more tolerable win. When looking at the fight at a more granular level I found all the information I needed to negate any logic that contradicts this win was realized through legitimate work.

With Ward you’ll always have those individuals pushing Murphy’s law pre-fight and when he wins they will reference his tendencies to push the in-fight rules as confirmation and validation for claiming he cheated his was to victory. Even the final blow that strayed lower than all the others was initially looked at as completely egregious, yet does anyone stop to think about Kovalev’s dubious stance even prior to the last questionable low blows? Kovalev was literally bent over leaving only his back exposed to the attacker, that’s not a defensive boxing stance. Legal defensive positioning includes variations of covering up, parrying, blocking, bob and weaving, clinching, swaying, ducking, slipping and clinching. None of the aforementioned was being utilized by Kovalev as he attempted to avoid the body attack.

Kovalev’s demise came from genuine bodywork, don’t get lost in the additives. Appreciate the steaks natural flavor when prepped and cooked correctly, the salt and pepper don’t make the meat they only season and enhance its established core.