Ali vs Liston II: the "Phantom Punch"

This says far more about you than it does about him. Here he is sticking to his argument, being civil, and not getting personal. And here you are talking about his kids. Despicable.

 

Ali did put his hands up, jump into the air and do a lap around the ring after motioning for Liston to "Get Up!" People can sometimes say conflicting things in the heat of the moment. I think he might have been surprised that Liston went down from that punch, but if he thought for sure it was a fix, he probably wouldn't have done a celebratory lap in the manner that he did.

 

Zzzzzzzz.

 

I’m not arguing it was a fix. I just think the punch wasn’t enough to keep Liston down for 10 seconds, and the biggest witness to this is the man who threw the punch who clearly didn’t think so either, hence his reaction.
As time’s gone on I tend to think it was a flash knockdown and for whatever reason Sonny stayed down.

 

This whole discussion isn't about whether it was a FIX or not. The discussion is whether it was a KO punch or not. That is the important question we are discussing. If it wasn't a KO punch, it could be that people told LIston to go down without Ali knowing, it could be that Liston wanted to stay down and not get humiliated more. It could many things, but what that wasn't, was a KO punch enough to keep Liston down. If you believe THAT punch could keep somebody down that had never been KO'd before, ever, then you might also believe in the tooth fairy.

 

Again, which is the point, THAT punch wasn't a KO punch and Ali knew it. It's not whether it's a fix or not, the discussion is whether that was a legit KO punch.

 

As I mentioned, just saying Get up get up could indicate that Ali didnt' think it was a KO punch. However, the additional lines of, NOBODY WILL BELIEVE THIS and going back to his corner... he laid down... certainly make the get up get up crystal clear. You keep excluding those additional quotes which further reinforce the point and I'm not sure why. Let's say for arguments sake, audio comes out and Ali is heard saying those specific things..... would you still believe that punch was a KO punch?

 

Do you concede that just because the FBI investigates something, and nobody is indicted, doesn't mean nothing happened or no crime was committed? True or false?

 

I think most people here agree that Liston wasn't motivated with a fighting spirit for the fight. Combine that with the officiating confusion.
I agree that Liston should have stood up sooner, and for all intents and purposes he indeed did get up. But he didn't react to going down with heart and a fighting spirit. He didn't object passionately to the stoppage.

I read something a while back that Liston was deflated after Ali had the hernia in training.
And for further context, he was this unstoppable monster who got stopped in 7 rounds by a guy people predicted he would kill in 2 rounds.
His personal narrative of who he was as a boxer was shattering. Things weren't going his way in the build up to the fight.
Add to that that he got flash knocked down in the first round from a guy he could hardly touch.
I wouldn't say he completely gave up, but he just wasn't in it.

When the FBI interviewed "boxing experts" in search for a fix, they basically all told the Bureau that Liston was a dog, or in essence he didn't have the fighting spirit. I think Liston lacked a little competitive discipline, similar to Foreman before his comeback. I think Liston had to sense some level of control in the ring to really flourish. As is the case with several "bully" fighters. It works for 99% of opponents, but not that once in a century elite boxer.

I think the "phantom punch" is one of the nicest punches every thrown. The speed, timing, and flexibility of Alis movement on the punch were amazing. And I wish there were better footage of it, because I think it would really encapsulate the quality of the punch. Liston could stay competitive and disciplined in tough fights. He could take punches from really hard punchers, and trade back and forth with them in the mud. But a guy he could hardly catch, beating him to the punch with razor sharp punches, and who was just mentally on top of him? It may not look scarier, but its more hopeless. I theorize that a young Foreman would find himself in a similar predicament had he fought that version of Ali.

 

Well I agree with some of what you say here, and it seems you also believe it wasn't a KO punch correct? That is all we've been saying for awhile now. Nobody knows WHY he didn't get up, but it seems reasonable to most that he could've gotten up and that punch wasn't enough to KO him and make out like he was doing.

 

Two respected sources Pacheco and Izenberg said Ali added," nobody will believe this"

What interpretation would you put on the remark, "he laid down"
ps He showed up at Liston's home before the first fight .
You seem bound and determined to believe it was kosher,those of us would think the opposite are just as convinced it wasn't ,and on balance I think the probability lies with us. We shall have to agree to disagree.At least you haven't ,like your back up ,implied we are uneducated for our stance.

 

Liston himself said the punch did not hurt and he could have gotten up.What the crux here is why didnt he?

 

This is very true and why the whole things seems odd. At least he seems to agree it wasn't a KO punch now, while other can't even seem to agree with that and maintain that the punch landed was enough to stop Liston and KO him.

 

On the night he turned to his brother and said," he laid down".

 

Technically you are correct. But are you familiar with the FBIs history?
And how they fabricate evidence when they really want someone to go down?
They often find targets, and do everything in their power to find a crime, because they want that person indicted.

Clearly from the reports they really wanted to find something on the fight to indicate a fix.
And the fact that they couldn't find anything is very telling when you read in between the lines.

Does it definitely prove that there was no fix? No.
But they are an incredible powerful agency.
They wanted to find something.
They couldn't.