Are the technical boxing skills of Jim Driscoll disgustingly archaic?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by roughdiamond, Sep 4, 2019.


  1. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    What are your thoughts on Langford?
     
  2. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Gifted, experienced and extremely powerful with a clever veterans mind. Today, I'd give him a chance, or even make a clear favourite, against anyone around 160 - 190 odd pounds. I can't see him winning a heavy title today though, and he would certainly have to adapt his style to today's times (such as increasing his workrate and modifying his guard). I think he'd definitely be able to do it.
     
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  3. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    Yeah, I would need to see more but he certainly doesn’t look like some crude caveman with poor technique in this clip.
     
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  4. Pat M

    Pat M Well-Known Member Full Member

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    I've watched a few other videos of Moon, he looks fundamentally sound. He is just aggressive. He reminds me of Holyfield after Holyfield gets hit and just wants to hit the other guy harder. Moon is a top fighter because he is fundamentally sound and fights in a style that works for him. I'm glad I posted in this thread, I hadn't seen Moon before, now he is one of the fighters that I'll recommend that others watch.

    Something that most good fighters don't do that well is to move after they are finished punching in the direction of their last punch, Moon does that almost every time. Many boxers have trouble doing it even while shadow boxing or hitting the bag. Moon is not likely to end a combination with a left hook and then move to his right into a left hook. Smart fighter.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
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  5. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    If your interested, here's a HQ version of Moon vs Robert Shannon as an amateur. Moon breaks down Shannon with concrete aggression

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    If you're a fan of Moon, than you'll definitely be a fan of Fighting Harada, Jiro Watanabe and Jung Koo Chang.
     
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  6. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Yeah, workrate is basically a duration thing and different guard is necessary with different gloves. That's nothing that he wouldn't be able to change.

    I also don't see him being a force in HW division and he wouldn't need that today. I can see him dominating lighter divisions like you said.

    What do you think about his punching technique? Pat M was very critical of that some time ago and even said that Willie Driver was better fighter than him in terms of abilities, fundamentals and technique.

    What do you think about his defense in films we have?
     
  7. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    I will have to rewatch the films. Been quite a while since I've looked at Sam extensively. I'll get back to you.
     
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  8. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Thanks, remember to watch his fight against Jeannette as he was the best filmed opponent.
     
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  9. Pat M

    Pat M Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Good video, apparently the South Koreans were known as good fundamental fighters, Cosell mentioned it and I'm sure he didn't notice it himself. He didn't know much about boxing, so he probably heard it from someone connected with boxing. I'll try to watch some of the others you mentioned, Fighting Harada, Jiro Watanabe and Jung Koo Chang. I always start by watching a fighter's feet, then if they look good, I'll watch the rest. If I see a fighter and he moves the front foot 6", then moves the back foot 12", or he moves the right foot first when he moves to the left, I have no interest in that fighter. IMO, if the feet are wrong, everything else is too. Moon has good movement/balance and everything else comes from that.

    Just watched the Watanabe clip you posted. Another good fighter. Looks like the Asians were teaching good fundamentals.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2019
  10. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    A staple of the Korean fighters were their probing jabs. Chan Hee Park was the definitive Korean stylist, but Chang was their greatest fighter. The guy simply ran through styles.

    Fighting Harada is the man I'd consider the most technically skilled swarmer ever. His jab was insane, and one of the best ever. He is Japan's greatest fighter. The great thing with Harada is that most of his career was filmed. You can see him go from a skilled but very raw and physically talented Flyweight champion, to the immensely skilled legendary Batamweight who beat Jofre.
     
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  11. roughdiamond

    roughdiamond Ridin' the rails... Full Member

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    Yo. Been watching a few minutes of the Langford vs Jeanette bout (which has also been coloured by d brown).

    Langford's punch technique reminds me of George Foreman. It has its similarities in the way he drives his hips and creates leverage IMO. Very dangerous if it catches you.

    What strikes me most from giving this a proper rewatching, though, is just how relaxed a fighter Langford is. A real cool customer. There's no nervous energy there, even in the crappy film. Looks like a guy who's done it all before. This also helps his punching. No excess tension allows him to whip the power in. The amount of experience Sam had cannot be over stated.

    The constant clinching and disengaging really gets to me, though. Makes it very hard to watch and analyse. Obviously this wouldn't fly today. The slow pacing is hard to watch.

    Langford has some adept feints, but they are far too infrequent in this one. He would be much better if he constantly worked it. With that power, it's soul crushing.

    Defense wise, Langford obviously had tricks up his sleeve to go on so long at such high weights. In this film with Jeanette, he shows adept parrying and some sneaky turns of the head. It would definitely need changing for boxing of today, though. The over reliance on parrying and slow pacing, which leads to low hands, would not fare well with bigger gloves. Imagine Kovalev? A pure 1910s style would have massive trouble with his sharpshooting straights at a fast accurate pace. Langford is unquestionably the better talent and greater fighter (and has better power IMO) but he wouldn't do well.

    Bobbing, weaving etc definitely needs to be developed most by Sam IMO. He's nowhere near as good as Dempsey who came a bit later. I guess it correlates to the time period, but it's quite glaring for me compared to the others.

    The modern boxer Langford most reminds me of is Qawi, probably due to their similar disposition and body type. If Langford adapted to now, he'd probably look like Qawi. His movements and reactions also have a very 'Toney'ish' feel.

    Overall, Langford was a phenom for any era, but with a very old school style.

    Edit: edited a bit.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2019
  12. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    With Langford it's worth remembering just how freaky was reach was, his matched Jeannette's, and was longer than Flynn's.
     
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  13. 70sFan865

    70sFan865 Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Thanks for this great, in depth post. I agree with your overall conclusion. This is how we should judge fighters regadless of eras or biases.
     
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  14. BitPlayerVesti

    BitPlayerVesti Boxing Drunkie Full Member

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    Is there footage of Attell other than against Kilbane?

    I thought he really just looks shot in that one, his speed and strength just looks gone.

    He seems to have gotten the better of Moran throughout their fights from what I've seen.

    Edit: In their longer ones, 25 and 23 rounds, they were utterly level, though Attell won the NWS decision in their later shorter ones. Attell was reported to have been more skilled in the first two however. I'm not really happy with that last sentence.
     
    Last edited: Jul 8, 2021
  15. Tin_Ribs

    Tin_Ribs Me Full Member

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    The Kilbane fight is what I've seen, I'm not sure what else is out there tbh.
     
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