Marciano v Cokkell Not In B & W.By D Brown

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Tonto62, Sep 5, 2019.



  1. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    It’s perfectly reasonable to look at any fighter, especially unbeaten ones, and look at a way to beat them. That’s fine.

    But the surprising thing about Marciano is technically he could not have come up against more sophisticated boxing technicians from any other part of Boxing history could he? Charles And Walcott, so far as skills go, are about the best at heavyweight. Anthony Joshua, Klitschko, Lennox Lewis even..there’s no improvement on a technical basis is there?

    If anyone could simply exploit the boxing flaws on a technical level those two should have. Rocky never should have laid a glove on them.

    The size argument was exposed in the Carnera era. It happens less now for a variety of modern reasons I can go into, but in terms of height and reach Andy Ruiz Jnr should never have been allowed to happen if it was so set in stone that heavyweights cannot overcome size.

    Rocky was not unbeatable, but the guy cannot be written off so easily. His greatness was legitimately proved and actually stands up as well as many other all time great fighters that I regard better than he was.
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  2. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I can’t find it online but heard there is a sort of compubox for the greats and Marciano faired well within it . Oddly Frazier was actually found to have the best hit and not be hit ratio amongst them. Which you wouldn’t think from a pressure fighter especially thay short of one. Not sure if it’s or if u know anything of it? Maybe in Ali by the numbers or something?
     
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  3. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    I feel like unique wins a lot in the HW division. Every great champ with maybe the exception of Holmes, Liston and Lewis was a unique fighter in their own right with a slightly different style that was slightly unorthodox. Ali, Frazier, Foreman, Tyson, Marciano, Dempsey, Louis, etc were just different which I feel helped them.
     
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  4. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    You are a human emetic.
     
  5. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    An unusual response to sound information, it certainly was not my intention that you call me a “human emetic”. I hope you are not stamping your feet and slamming doors?
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
  6. Pat M

    Pat M Active Member Full Member

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    I grew up hearing about Marciano within my family and in the area I grew up, he was "boxing." It didn't matter who the champion was at the time, RM was better, according to my family and neighbors. Looking back, most of them had only "heard" about RM from their dad or uncles, or had seen a short clip of him, and none of them knew much about boxing technique. When I saw video of RM and I had some training and knew what I was watching, I wondered what my family and others saw that impressed them. Later, when video of RM was widely available (Youtube) and I saw more, I was underwhelmed. Today, RM is firmly in that group of fighters that, if they could come back to life and fight, I wouldn't walk across the street to watch them.

    IMO, RM looks terrible on video, slow, unbelievably bad footwork, movement, and balance. The video at Mayweather's Gym asking fighters and trainers who would win between RM and Andre Ward tells the real story. I suspect the answer would be the same at any good boxing gym. I have never been in any gym where I heard a trainer or fighter tell somebody to do anything like RM.
     
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  7. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    I disagree with the premise here. You don’t need some microscope to see the kind of flaws and deficiencies Marciano had. It’s not like they only came to light because some unfair critics scrutinized him excessively. They were obvious and as clear as day to the people who watched his career in real time, and they are obvious and clear as day now. Later champions get disparaged and called out for their technical flaws and limited skills all the time, to the point of caricature.
     
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2020
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  8. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    I grew up being told he was a dirty, crude ******* who cynically fouled Don Cokkell. I soon realized he was several leagues above Cokkell,who was a false alarm at world heavyweight level.
     
  9. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Funny because Archie and Walcott had the same thoughts about RM...didn’t work out to well for them.
     
  10. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    so why couldn’t pound for pound all time great like Ezzard Charles or Archie Moore beat him during hot streaks?

    I think the question was why can’t the same microscope be applied to any other champion? Because the flaws, or similar ones can be found in all champions.

    Cokkel earned his position in the rankings. Get over it. How many rated fighters did Tony Tucker beat before he was included in a vacant title fight? What did Charles Martin do to get a ranking or a title? In order to Challenge Tyson who did Larry Holmes have to beat? Or Klitschko to challenge Joshua? What positioning in the ring magazine rankings was anybody that anyone beat in order to challenge for a title in the last 10 years? Manual Charr?
     
    Last edited: Sep 10, 2019
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  11. choklab

    choklab cocoon of horror Full Member

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    And I bet all those guys pick Archie Moore to beat Andre Ward too...
     
  12. mrkoolkevin

    mrkoolkevin Never wrestle with pigs or argue with fools Full Member

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    I think Charles and Walcott have both grown highly overrated as heavyweights. Especially the aging versions that fought Marciano. I think there have been plenty of more recent heavyweights who had better physical tools, fighting style, and dare I say technique to either overwhelm or pick Marciano apart. Big men who would have thrown dozens of jobs a round while staying out of his range, and big guys who would have bombed on Marciano with harder punches than he ever experienced in his career.

    I have no idea what “size argument” you are criticizing or think people are making. The truly ridiculous size argument that gets made in these threads is the notion that size doesn’t really matter against Marciano (unless you’re an ATG immortal yourself) because he was just So Damn Great.
     
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  13. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Archie called him a grinder after their fight.
     
  14. Tonto62

    Tonto62 Boxing Addict banned Full Member

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    Neither Charles nor Walcott were thought highly of up until the 70s when a certain amount of revisionism set in.
    Boxing Illustrated did an all time heavyweight poll and came up with ," stick a pin in the middle of the pack , not the best ,but not the worst either".Now we are regularly being told here,that they were great heavyweights. Joe Louis certainly did not have that opinion of either of them.
     
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  15. Gazelle Punch

    Gazelle Punch Boxing Addict Full Member

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    You would think Louis would all things considered. Charles was an underrated HW. Walcott was a solid fighter and would be really good in any era but his chin would always let him down. It def wasn’t a strong era but it was def stronger then the previous decades. 50s would provide a lot of solid talent for the decade. That you really could put up against most decades.