I think you're both making really good points. But Holmes imo was a natural heavy...not entirely sure about JJW or EC...I just know those two fighters were awesome.
Yes Holmes was a natural heavy as we see it today, but why measure them by an arbitrary point, that had no relevance in either man's era? I don't think that either Marciano or Holmes, made much distinction between 199lbs and 201lbs.
You made a statement trying to minimise the size difference between Marcinao's challengers and Larry Holmes. "Holmes best weight was about 210lbs" Holmes' average weight for defences was 215.9lbs ,. Marciano defended against one man over 200lbs5'10" fat Don Cokkell who was a natural lightheavyweight.
There isn't much of a difference to minimize to be honest. Pick any version of Holmes you want to work with!
Now that is an interesting what if. Even looking at adjacent eras, Marciano could have faced a very different set of contenders. It is hard to be sure whether he was lucky with the draw or not!
Then take the logic to its conclusion, and bring the same arguments up, when any champion gets matched with somebody 10-15 lbs heavier than their challengers. Who did Holmes defend against that was as big as Primo Carnera, or Wladamir Klitschko?
Cooney doesn't count? Looked like a super heavy to me. And Holmes bounced him all over the ring. Larry also fought against bulked out fighters, like Norton, Weaver, Tyson. Went 2 for 3.
Holmes fought Cooney and Jones. He also beat a slew of Guys who were roughly 6'4, Weaver, Williams and Witherspoon coming to mind. Wlad has fought loads. Jefferson, McCline, Austin, Thompson 2*, Wach, Pianetta, Fury and Joshua are all 6'5 or over. He's fought more 6'4 guys than I care to name
Let's treat the win in the same way that Marciano's opponents are being treated. You would start by pointing out that Cooney was about 20 lbs lighter than Carnera/Lewis/Wlad/whoever. Then you would point out that he never beat anybody ranked in the top ten, so he was a manufactured contender. In two steps, you have reduced a win that is not without merit, to nothing!
They just don’t want to admit that EVERY champions record can be criticized the way they do marcianos with the exception of Ali and Louis (they even criticize his record too). Only true knock on Marciano’s record is the briskness of his career. He only had a few fights against some bigs and they were average but he wiped the floor with them so it really shouldn’t be a question if he could compete.
You are. Rockys average oppnent wasnt 6'3 or 200+. In fact, the average opponent was below 6'1 and under 200. There is literally nothing in rocky's resume to suggest he'd be "used to" dealing with a guy of holmes' dimensions. Especially not someone that size with a combination of speed, technique, and chin. I repeat, louis did not have a functional 213 lbs of frame and did not weigh anywhere near that amount for the majority of his career, he simply gained weight from getting old. This is a silly ass argument. You just dont want to give an inch.
Let me see Roland LaStarza a 180 pound cruiser weight out boxed Marciano. Let me see 160 to 170 pound tomato can Ted Lowry beat the tar out of Marciano and almost stopped him. Larry Holmes beats the bricks out of Marciano and stops him with in a few rounds.
