In a way it's a tribute to Williams that your attempts to belittle him have to be so contrived and flimsy. A couple of losses when he was a 20 year old prospect. A made-up claim that he was "intimidated" by a man he'd already soundly beaten. A completely baseless claim that the 26 year old Alex Miteff was "shopworn". A loss to a peak Muhammad Ali when 33 years old and on the comeback trail from a near-fatal gunshot wound. It all just highlights the fact that you're unable to come up with a single example from anywhere close to his prime where Williams failed to perform like the good contender he was.
There is no documentation that Williams was in any way intimidated by Richardson who was domestic level if one is being honest.. Why would a guy who fought a prime Liston, not once but twice ,be intimidated by Richardson? It's absolutely absurd! But coming from you entirely appropriate!
I agree entirely except I would rate Williams as better than London and he had the power to stop Patterson if he landed. Patterson was intimidated by Liston's reputation as much as anything. He wouldn't have been intimidated in that way by Williams.
Not true. His draw with machen and points win over billy the barber Daniels point to Williams being a good contender at that time. And I mentioned this. A good contender yes. Champion no. What I want to know is this, when does beating billy the barber on points and drawing with Eddie machen point to somebody other than Cleveland Williams making it to “best heavyweight never to become champion” status???
[QUOTE="choklab, post: 20101012, member: 50845"]Not true. His draw with machen and points win over billy the barber Daniels point to Williams being a good contender at that time. And I mentioned this. A good contender yes. Champion no. What I want to know is this, when does beating billy the barber on points and drawing with Eddie machen point to somebody other than Cleveland Williams making it to “best heavyweight never to become champion” status???[/QUOTE] The title of the thread is "One cf the best heavyweights never to become champion" Nobody here is claiming he was the best! Spin spin spin !
Williams was never in a position to challenge Floyd. If he was scared of Williams how come he took Ingo???
Williams was no7 in 61 when Floyd was champ. I stated Cus would not allow Patterson to fight Williams and he wouldn't! Go make up some more fairy tales
Jesus Christ the mileage you get out of having a big punch and impressive physique. His best win was practically a green Terrell and all of a sudden he's this uncrowned ATG.
I am more curious than argumentative...do you have a source or link for this information or is it an opinion?
Love the reasoning. Floyd supposedly ducked Machen, but he's so terrified of this big bad Williams that has beaten nobody so he takes on the guy who smashed Machen into tomorrow instead. Strange duck. Didn't really work out, either.
On 1961 Floyd was subject to a rematch clause. After that he had Sonny to deal with, a fight he took after a warm up double bill on the same card that Sonny also fought a warm up opponent ahead of their upcoming fight. Where was Williams supposed to feature? Sonny had already smoked him twice. Can you imagine the stink if Floyd took Williams over Sonny who had deserved logical contender status beating Harris, folly and machen. When did Williams beat guys like that?
This is Groudhog Day. This Williams debate has been exhaustively gone over a few times over the past 18 months or so. I suggest, those interested review them. All aspects were covered, many by several, that don't post anymore. One that does, choklab, provided a detailed timeline of the heavyweight ratings, and Williams' place in them.
That may be, but Floyd wanted to prove himself a worthy champion. D'Amato's protectiveness became a point of dissension between the two men. D'Amato's actions opened Floyd up to criticism, but it also made him the wealthiest champion ever in the days before cable TV. The amount of money he made in comparison with other fighters who came before him and after him in the 15 years following his title victory over Archie Moore is staggering. I think Floyd was grateful at first, but when he started being criticized his desire to prove himself became more important than the money since he then had enough to last a lifetime. When he broke free from D'Amato, we all saw what happened against Liston. It is possible that the same thing might have happened against Williams. A lot would have depended on Floyd's state of mind when he would have fought Cleveland. About all we have to go are comparisons with Machen's fights against Ingo and Liston who were also Patterson opponents. And depending on how you view those fights, you can argue the outcome of a Patterson-Williams fight either way.
