Cleveland Williams one the best heavyweights never to be champion

Of course he is. Up for debate is whether he is like, you know, in the ten best never to win it or the hundred best etc etc.

 

First Williams would have to qualify as a challenger ahead of Sonny Liston just to get a fight with Patterson. And we all know that emphatically never happened.

Second, Williams was decked more times by lesser fighters than Patterson was. He was hardly difficult to knockout himself. Without evidence of knocking out a world level fighter himself what threat is Williams to Floyd? At least Liston and Ingo had the evidence of knocking out top men to support their wins over Patterson. What does Williams have?

Floyd knocked out a guy just like Williams in Charlie Powell. So there’s actually more reasoning for Floyd beating Williams than for Williams beating Floyd. Cleveland just dosnt have the pedigree.

 

Where is the basis for including him in the 100 best never to win the title?

I put Willisms behind Joey Maxim and Tommy Laughran who at least beat heavyweight world champions. And I would not dream of including them as best guys never to win the heavyweight title.

I would however include Williams as a wild card to win the title for most exciting heavyweight with no signature wins at world level.

 

Feel free to list your 100+ guys never to win the title that you feel are better than Williams. This should be good.

 

That's not really "exactly the same", is it? It's more a case of what I said about Cleveland Williams being true, and your reply about Comiskey and Retzlaff being false.

And as for excusing Williams's losses because he was young or old, I do that because it happens to be true. If, as you've claimed, Williams was on the same level as a Mike DeJohn or a Brian London then there would be evidence of it. Not from when he was a 20 year old prospect or comebacking in his mid 30s, but from when he was in his prime. He would have been beaten clearly by Machen and Terrell, and somewhere along the line he would have lost, or at least come close to losing, against the likes of Billy Daniels, Alex Miteff, Wayne Bethea, John Holman, Alonzo Johnson, Dick Richardson, Roger Rischer, Curley Lee or George Moore.

But he didn't, because in the eyes of everyone who isn't determined to believe otherwise, Williams was one of the top heavyweights of his era and only the very best stood a chance against him.

 

But he could not beat machen or Terrell. They were not “the very best” at that time. Liston and Ali were the very best. And they absolutely demolished Williams. It was not even close.

Like I say, Brian London could not have done any worse against Ali or Liston. So that’s no “best fighter not to become champion” is it?

 

No he wouldn't Rademacher,Harris,and London didn't, why would Williams be a special case? Powell couldn't hit like Williams, and he wasnt a title defence anyway.Powell was ko'd by Floyd in his next to last fight,to illustrate how past prime he was he was ko'd a month later by 3rd rater Billy Walker! You really make some ridiculous arguments!

 

Off the top of my head here are many of the guys I think go ahead of Cleveland Williams chances of being the best not to win a title. It is not a short list. And there are a lot more I could include if only I had the time to research it more.

Every alphabet guy not listed can count as somebody who never became champion and who is ahead of Cleveland Williams to.

Peter Jackson
Tom sharkey
Harry wills
Philadelphia Jack Obrion
Sam Langford
Larry Gains
Harry Greb
Steve Hamas
Jack Renault
Paulino uzcudun
Lou nova
Billy conn
Arturo Godoy
Paul Cavaliere
Jimmy bivins
Archie Moore
Elmer Ray
Rex Layne
Tommy laughran
Joey Maxim
Eddie Machen
Zora Foley
Oscar Bonavena
Jerry Quarry
Jimmy Ellis
Ken Norton
Jimmy young
Ron lyle
Joe Bugner
Ernie Shavers
Mike Weaver
Trevor Berbick
Tim Witherspoon
Pinklon Thomas
Gerry Cooney
Razor Ruddock
Bonecrusher Smith
Carl the Truth Williams
Renaldo Snipes
Frank Bruno
Golata
Chris Byrd
Oliver McCall
Ray Mercer
Oleg Maskaev
povertkin
Vitali klitschko

 

Rademacher was a tune up for a defence against #1 rated hurricane Jackson. It came just weeks within that fight to save on the cost of going into camp twice. No way was Williams regarded as championship material around that time or even novelty material like Bob was. Jackson eclipses Williams as a threat to the title by quite some way because he could actually fight his way to #1 status during that period.

By comparison at that time Williams had only recently cameback from a two year retirement after the terrible beating he took from Bob Satterfield in 1954. He was beating up on novice guys in 1957 called JD Marshall. His 2nd fight in 3 years. It was well below the radar.

Harris and London were rated higher than Williams was when their challenges took place because they simply beat better men ranked higher than the guys Williams was beating. They qualify as legit challengers. Both were higher than #5 when those fights were made.

I don’t think Williams had even been knocked out by Liston yet. His prestige as a contender only started after those crushing defeats to Sonny.

 

Excellent breakdown!

 

Well, someone who didn't win the crown is uncrowned, isn't he? And "one of the best to never win the HW title" would put him up there with Jackson, Langford and Wills, so definitely in the ATG discussion.

If you don't like being called out for hyperbole, your best option is not to post any. Posting in caps after the fact is a much worse one.

 

You avoided the point which was qualification to challenge for the title .Every time you get shot down you go off on a new tangent.

 

Every fighter who didn't win a title is then the uncrowned champion? Is that what your are saying?
I never mentioned hyperbole .You keep inserting these phrases and then defending the use of them when nobody has mentioned them except you.You are arguing with yourself in effect!

 

No, you didn't mention hyperbole. I did. Because saying that Williams is among the best never to win the HW title is hyperbole.

 

Well that's your opinion and you are entitled to it. I read your posts and agree with a lot of them,but on this occasion I don't.No harm done either way.