Jack Johnson vs Joe Frazier

None that spring to mind but then I never made that claim that there was. I was just questioning Houdini’s claim that Johnson was used to fighting fighters that resembled Frazier.

 

Oh, I don't know... he beat the greatest heavyweight ever. Does that count? And a guy who had recently added clinching and controlling to his arsenal. A big, strong guy, too. Not a 6 footer with 74" reach who arguably peaked at 190.

 

The question is how Frazier will be able to launch an offense?

Johnsons major skill set was the ability to shut down a slugger/swarmer exactly where they need to work...in close. Johnson was an unmatched master and it would not matter whether Dempsey, Marciano or Frazier were in the ring with him. He would smother these type styles via placing his gloves on the outside of his opponents elbows effectively eliminating hooks to his sides forcing opponents to punch down the middle. He in turn would take the power out of these punches down the middle by pushing upon his opponents elbows. Johnson the master blocker would effectively block hooks to his head should an opponent free up an arm. Once blocked he would immediately return his opponents arm back to “control” position. Inbetween Johnson had a devastating left or right uppercut he would use to great effect. Truly remarkable skill set and this skill set was the reason why he welcomed opponents to try to work inside.

So the idea that Frazier would land ongoing multiple hooks to body and head is utter ignorance and just reveals complete ignorance of the greatness of Johnson defensively. Johnson made an entire career of making fools out of sluggers inside. It was HIS game and no one did it better.

 

Ali had no inside game so he just took it once Joe got in close. An inside fight was Johnson’s meat. He relished working in close nullifying a swarmers offense via clever boxing.

 

Again, simp... tell me that this guy looks anything like Frazier....

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And this is a mature, polished McVea, not the young stripling that Johnson faced.

Stopping the offense of one is not like stopping the other.

 

Hey liar!

Exact same skill set would equate to the same end result. It would be a very frustrating night for Frazier as he would be unable to launch any consistent offense.

 

it really is not that hard to click the reply button...half the time we have no idea who you are talking to...but that’s alright I guess, figuring out what you are talking about is the bigger conundrum and I don’t have a solution to offer you for that one. Good luck

 

What are you talking about? Frazier has the style to catch up to and take out fine boxers. It was his specialty.

Examples: Eddie Machen has a solid defense and a good enough chin to take some of Liston's best legal and illegal blows. He could not keep Frazier off him and was stopped late. Same thing with Jimmy Ellis, except after winning maybe one round Frazier got to him quick. And he made Ali fight for pretty much every single round of their trilogy. Johnson did not have Ali chin, heck not even Machen's. He was more stationary than Ali, Machen or Ellis on film, and his punch output on film is much lower than theirs.

Frazier is not some 5'7 to 5'9 moderately at best skilled guy who would fall into a clinch. He has fast and active hands and a solid defense of his own. With Johnson's low guard and similar size, Frazier would have an opening to land his hook whenever he wanted to. Trading would not work for Johnson, either. He could clamp down and clinch, yes, but Frazier is not a stationary fool to be uppercut, he has an offense of his own up close.

 

Tonto62 sasy, It was a poor fight simply because Johnson dominated McVey.
[url]1904-04-22[/url] 207 [url]Jack Johnson[/url] 190 18 3 6
Mechanic's Pavilion, San Francisco
L
KO 20/20
referee: [url]Eddie Graney[/url]
Johnson defends world 'colored' heavyweight title
According to the San Francisco Call this was poor fight with Johnson dominating, fighting in spurts, until knocking out McVey 20 seconds from the final bell. Once again McVey was knocked down in the first round.
That's their third fight.Johnson ko'd him, spotting him17lbs.

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Mcvey er Tonto 62 says: Johnson never said Ketchel was his hardest fight ,he always said McVey was
.Produce a quote from Johnson saying what you state.We both know you won't don't we!!

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Tonto says:
[url]1903-10-27[/url] [url]Jack Johnson[/url] 15 3 6
Hazard's Pavilion, Los Angeles
L
PTS 20/20
referee: [url]Charles Eyton[/url]
Johnson defends world 'colored' heavyweight title
The San Francisco Call reported that McVey - who was floored in rounds 1 and 6 - put up a plucky fight but was 'outgeneraled, outboxed and outclassed.' "Johnson fought cautiously, as he always does."
That was their second one .

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Tonto says: Belo3 is what Box Rec says about McVey's early fights
"McVea had fought twice before coming to Oxnard, once in Salinas and once in Australia; he had a reported record of 6-0-2 prior to this fight."

This would make his third fight with Johnson his 19th and, according to Box Rec, Johnson's 29th.

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Hey worthless coward, it's called head movement, lateral movement, an occasional jab, footwork, speed and pace. The same things he used to hunt down the greatest, most fluid heavyweight of all time, a guy who didn't set his feet at 45 degrees and who could actually glide around the ring.

I have absolute irrefutable proof you are as ignorant as plank. Have you found that proof that I am a liar? I am still waiting. Coward.

 

Frazier come in low waiting for Johnson to throw an uppercut. Frazier slices the hook right over it. How was Ali put on his back in 71? Throwing an uppercut.

 

False. It wasn't two years. He did take time off after winning the biggest fight in the history of the division. He took longer than he should have and it cost him. I don't think anyone who knows the first thing about Frazier's career is basing his greatness off that period from March 71 to Jan of 73.
Your a comedian. Be serious please. Mildenberger? Bugner? Cooper? Patterson? Floyd lost to Ellis in the 1968 tourney. Should Joe have fought the loser instead of the winner? LOL
Come on man
Joe cleaned out the division. There's always gonna be names and guys popping up. Most of those guys were at the end.
All Frazier did was fight
Doug Jones
Billy Daniels
George Chuvalo
Oscar Bonevena 2x
Eddie Machen
Manuel Ramos
Buster Mathis
Jerry Quarry
Jimmy Ellis
Bob Foster (Lightheavy Champion)
Muhammad Ali
Stander was so terrible but Shavers got whipped by him.
Joe knocks out Mathis for a version of the title then goes on to knockout both guys who finished 1st and 2nd in the elimination tourney. Not to mention some guy named Ali. He cleaned out the divison.
Joe's prime was during this time period.

 

None would have matched Frazier's work rate which would probably be the main stumbling block for the early 20th century fighters.
Johnson was ko'd early in his career by a left hook from Choynski,he never appeared particularly vulnerable to the punch again,but he was never called upon to avoid/weather so many as Frazier would be trying to lay on him.
Bobbers and weavers/crouchers are vulnerable to uppercuts,Johnson had a great one,to deliver it leaves you open to the hook.
The referee could be crucial here, one who permits clinching would favourJohnson,one who break them quickly and forces a fast pace would not.
Swings and roundabouts
All any of us can do is give our opinions and of course they can only be conjecture.
For a poster to label everyone else ignorant of boxing and unable to grasp "subtlies,and little nuances of individual performances solely because they disagree with his own views is the height of arrogant condescension.
We are supposed to get enjoyment out of these mythical matchups.Unfortunately trying to field lordly pronouncements delivered as though from Mt Sinai, and cynical and deliberate obfuscsation from haters propounding their wearying agenda takes away most of the fun from this.
Nice conversing with you.

 

He beat a guy lacking in ring rounds ,a guy who trusted neither his legs nor his stamina.
Ali's game was movement he did not have that against Frazier,he retreated to the ropes and corners of the ring and hoped Frazier would burn out.
Once Ali had the necessary rounds under his belt it was a different story in fights 2 &3.
Ali tried to smother Frazier by clasping him around the head ,giving Joe his body .Johnson would not do to that, he would clamp Frazier's left to his side in a vice and shoot uppercuts in.
Johnson stood flat footed, inviting his opponent forward, his left leg extended,most of his weight on his trailing right foot ,which was kept at a 45 degree angle . Parrying and blocking was his game, he relied on anticipating the incoming shots and nullifying and smothering them in this manner.
Reach would not be a factor either ,most of Johnson's foes outreached him ,but they never succeeded in out landing him!
Actually there are less similarities between Ali and Johnson than Frazier and McVey, and if you had lived through those times as I did you would know this! It is well understood by of us experts!

 

It was 1 year and 321 days if you want to be pedantic about it ,so less than 2 months short of 2 years.
Now lets look at your statement that ,"most of these guys were at the end".
Terrell was
No 1 in1966
No10 in1967

Folley
No 2 in1966

Spencer
No3 in1966
No 2 in 67

Patterson
No 4 in1966
No7 in1967
No 10 in1968
No 7 in 1971
Mildenberger
No 5 in1966
No 9 in1967
Liston
No7 in1968
No6 in 1969
No8 in1970
Foster
No5 in1969
No5 in1970
No5 in1971

Martin .
No7 in1968
No 4 in1969
Cooper
No9 in1969
No6 in1970
All the others were ranked in your time period.
Now let's look at the names you've provided as proof that Frazier,"cleaned out the division".
Jones UNRANKED
Daniels UNRANKED
Machen UNRANKED
Mathis UNRANKED
Foster UNRANKED
I'll add Zyglewiecz or whatever the **** his name was UNRANKED.
So you provided 11 names and 5 of them were not top ten ranked fighters when Frazier fought them.
I've added Ziggy making it 12 names now add Stander and Daniels that's 14 men ,8 of whom were UNRANKED when Frazier fought them.
In fact Mathis,Ziggy, T Daniels, Stander were never top ten ranked.
How does that constitute "clearing out the division"?
I'm afraid the comedy here is all on your side Pal.