Jack Johnson vs Joe Frazier

Frazier was even with Mathis on the referee's scorecard. Frazier was hardly elusive.
Quarry wasn't very good defensively imo,and Ellis fought a stupid fight against Frazier.
You seem to portray Frazier as being a monster puncher,he wasn't imo, he wore you down with non stop attrition.
Who of any quality did he actually knock out other than Doug Jones unranked and past prime, and Bob Foster a stringbean light heavy.
Foreman we know beats Frazier 7 days a week,So imo do Liston and Lewis.I'd make Tyson favourite over him and Bowe too and I'd pick Marciano to beat him, but not confidently .Vitali would be interesting as well.

 

He didn't have a problem landing as he picked up the pace, that's what I was getting at.

With all respect Tonto, I have to disagree.
FOTC Joe was very elusive imo. He was avoiding punches in bunches from one of the most accurate punchers in HW history. He bobbed and weaved with the best of them imo.

I don't think he is, just hard enough to grind almost any fighter down.

Completely agree. This is what I was going for.

 

Mathis wasn't in condition to take the gas from an all action fighter like Frazier,neither was the come-backing Ali for that matter.He was blowing in both the Quarry and Bonavena fights.
Frazier finished that fight looking like he'd stuck his face in a bees nest.He wasn't easy to catch, but he wasn't Willie Pep either.
Nice debating with you, I look forward to more of the same.

 

Same here.

I agree with most of this, but I think that it should be noted that anyone would be pressed to name 5 HWs who were more elusive than Joe, or 5 with a better Workrate.

 

Keed you obviously have not spent time watching Johnson fight or you just can’t comprehend boxing skill.

Johnson was one of the greatest defensive fighters ever to live. Better that Ellis, Quarry, Frazier or Ali and it’s not close and it’s not debatable.

Frazier would be able to do nothing inside vs Johnson. Eliminating Joes inside game means he has close to zero chance of winning. Prime Johnson vs Dempsey, Marciano or Frazier can only end one way. Johnson has the perfect style and skill set to beat them all rather easily. His defense inside is unequaled by any other hwt.

 

Frazier had slow legs. He said so himself. The idea that he closed distance quickly is laughable. One of his major flaws was to Bob and weave AND NOT move his legs. It made him much more susceptible to being hit at mid/long range.

Johnson loved to fight “hookers”. Again he said so himself. Inside Frazier is dead meat. Outside he is peppered to death. Very frustrating night for Smoking Joe. One sided beatdown round after round as his offense is eliminated.

 

This

 

Better work rate yes ,I agree.I'd be pressed to name more heavies than those I named who I would make favourite against him

I wouldnt call Frazier's legs slow,and I think he was into range pretty quickly ,certainly quicker than Marciano for example.When did he say he had ,"slow legs"?
I've never seen a quote fromJohnson that, "he loved to fight hookers"and I've 6 books on him.
Are you sure you haven't got the word," fight" mixed up with another that begins with F?
Could you provide a source for this quote please?

 

Well he had something else going on if he can catch the fastest of foot heavy ever in Ali and beat the ****ing **** out of him !

 

Looking at all the available footage of johnson I just do not see the brilliance some see in him......a fairly static jab and grabber ....I am not the biggest fan of Dempsey either but at least Dempsey was way more explosive, more fluid IMO and gave the crowd a show for their money.....Johnson in contradiction is boring as F despite being the "Bigman"..for historical purposes, maybe, he was the best man a 100 years ago while facing mainly skinny starved Middleweights....and I do not give much weight to news paper reports or rose colored fan fanfare by biased or ignorant writers, remember Hillary in a landslide.....next to Politicians, Reporters are the lowest form of labor,fact............the Ghost of Jeffries who according to the Johnson nuthuggers is a borderline bum went rounds and rounds with the the Worlds 8th Wonder, prime Johnson....... Reality....straight out of a time machine he gets rolled by Frazier....................the same Frazier would did/would get rolled like a ping pong ball by Foreman/Tyson/Bowe..............and Johnson would meet the same fate, against Tyson probably in the first round and Bowe would give him a mauling like he owed him money................Johnson has never ever seen or fought Talents like these , ever.

 

Those who watch the films or read the fight reports tend to get it. You said it. Johnson was widely over rated. Those who cling to books tend to latch on to whatever the author said.

 

Tonto62, post: 20111782, member: 67737"]Ketchel's weight for Johnson was estimated at170lbs, he did not weigh in, that little lie which you have repeated several times wont work I'm afraid.
O Brien did not weigh in for the Johnson fight, another little lie exposed once more! Pollack estimates that Johnson scaled around the same weight as Choynski when they fought and weights for Johnson ether side of this, tend to support his view.
Machen shook Frazier early in their fight I never said he knocked him down,and unlike yourself , I am always happy to provide proof of my claims! So,here it is.

"Machen's best moment came when he staggered Frazier with a left hook in the eighth round."Box Rec.

Now lets examine all these little short guys you say Johnson feasted on. Are you referring to;
McCormick 6' 2.5"
Klondike 6'1"
Ferguson 6'3"

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Moran6'1"

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Kaufman 6'1"
Martin 6'3"
Butler 6'.05"
Lester 6'3.5"
Felix 6.3"
Lang 6'1"
Russell 6'3"
Cowler 6'3.5"
Simmons 6'
Jeffords 6'4"
Are these the guys?
When you talk about super middleweights , are you sure you're not getting mixed up with Jim Jeffries opponents?
I know when you get excited the spelling mistakes and typos become more frequent .Judging by your last two efforts you are close to frothing at the mouth!

Which makes it all the more ironic is that you should tell me to calm down!

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Mendoza says: How much time do I spend on a lost cause?

First off, Johnson didn't even look good vs. a long in the tooth O'Brien.

Show me where Ketchel weightin in at 170! He was put in heeled cowboy boots to look taller for the photos. He doesn't even look 160 in the film.

Pollack estimates.....If he checked the scales for Johnson a year or two later, he would see Johnson was well over 175 pounds. Choynski was the smaller man, and cold clocked him. End of.

As for the names you listed, they were pretty poor fighters in general. The best were Kondike who was 1-1-1 vs Johnson, stopping him, and Griffin, past his best who defeated Johnson and drew twice. The others were not very good as their career would show you.

It's always Jeffries with you . He did better vs. the same opponents listed above in comparison to Johnson, you dolt. Yes, Jeffires did better vs.

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in comparison to Johnson. Jeffries ended his matches faster and did not lose. FACT. You aren't very good at thinking things out; you put up garbage thinking you made a point, I put you in your place using your own garbage. You forgot Jack Munroe. I wonder who did better vs him?

PS: Comparing Sam Mcvey to Joe Frazier? Keep the laughs coming!

 

I have watched a fight or two, read reports and seen highlights. Why don't you use the reply button?

I've not seen enough to determine his best performance, but I've seen enough to know how he fights and seen his skill set.

He'd struggle to make a top 20 defensive fighters.
He's better than Quarry and Elis granted. But he's a far cry better than Ali and Frazier.

Even if you disagree it's ridiculous to say it isn't close.

I've already been through this. Joe's inside game isn't getting neutralised by anyone, Jack Johnson included.

I agree, I'd favour all of them to KO Johnson.

 

To be fair Ali didn't do much dancing in FOTC ,he spent a large part of the fight on the ropes.

 

He beat the hell out of Ali but it was Frazier who spent several weeks in the hospital after the fight not Ali?