I think prime Mike Tyson could have dominated the early 1970's heavyweight scene

Such as??

 

Such as you saying that Foreman's performance against Lyle could be excused due to ring rust, mental state and yet cite Tyson's loss to McBride in your case against Tyson with no caveat that this was hardly the best version of Tyson.

 

I did compare their heart though. I cited the example of Tyson scrambling on the canvas trying to stuff his mouthpiece back in his mouth so he could resume a fight he was getting battered in. I also cited an example of Foreman in comparison, in a fight he was arguably winning, lying on the canvas looking at his corner letting the ref count him out. I know he was 'dead tired' but let's not make excuses for either man, shall we?

And I did compare their chins. Tyson took on Ruddock who was a big hitter and easily withstood the blows. Foreman took on Lyle, big hitter, and got knocked down and nearly out. I have compared both chin and heart and on the evidence, Tyson comes out well.

Don't just give me emojis and capital letters. Show me where Foreman's great show of heart compares to Tyson accepting defeat a bit easily. And don't use example of comeback George and post-prison Tyson. Those parts of their careers are irrelevant in a discussion on how a prime Tyson would have done with the 70s version of George.

 

How many left hooks did Ali eat in the first 14 rounds? He was dropped in the 15th round. Frazier was himself for like 2 minutes against Foreman. Then the knockdowns started. The Frazier fights are a testament to Foreman's power, not his chin. When you're bringing up Tyson vs McBride and Williams, you're running on empty.

How about Berbick, Tubbs, Williams? They stood up to Tyson and got destroyed. Ruddock actually looked somewhat nervous when he fought Tyson but he still gave Tyson hell because he was an elite fighter. Douglas and Holyfield controlled the fight from the beginning. They never let Tyson into the fight. Tucker and Pinklon also stood up to Tyson. Didn't come close to winning.

You're not gonna believe this. But neither did Lennox Lewis, Wladimir Klitschko, or Sonny Liston. That's just HWs. And only the ones I know of. 3 ATG HWs that never got up off the canvas to win a fight. Holyfield and Foreman got off the canvas to win just once in their entire careers. Foreman against Lyle and Holyfield against Cooper. But the only fighter who's scrutinized for not getting off the canvas to win is Mike Tyson. How hard was it to put Mike on the canvas? It wasn't that hard to drop Lewis and Wlad. But you had to beat the **** out of Tyson to drop him. As witnessed in his fights against Douglas and Lewis. Holyfield never really put Tyson down.

Foreman quit in a fight he was supposed to win with ease. He was supposed to "kill" Ali. You brought up Tyson quitting in fights he was winning (Williams and McBride). BUT, did a prime Tyson ever quit because he ran out of gas? Because that's what Foreman did. In his prime. At his peak. He wasn't knocked out. He quit.

Foreman got dropped twice by Ron Lyle in 5 rounds. Tyson wasn't wobbled a single time in 19 rounds against Ruddock. Tyson was stopped by Douglas, Foreman was stopped by Ali. Foreman was dropped by Jimmy Young too. Foreman's mental toughness really showed up in that fight. He was afraid to fight because he didn't wanna gas out. That's prime Foreman. What heart, am I right? And what a chin. Getting dropped by Jimmy ****in Young. The guy couldn't crack a walnut.

We're talking about Tyson in the 70s here so there's no need to bring up the old Foreman from the 90s. 70s Foreman wasn't all that. At least not the way you're making him out to be. So much so that Tyson's chin/heart is somehow incomparable to Foreman. If we're talking peak for peak, they were both front runners and neither had the mental toughness of an Ali/Frazier. To say 1 is way ahead of the other is not true.

 

There are several issues with your post.

First, Foreman explains the whole zaire knockdown thing where he seems to be looking at his corner:

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Foreman explains that he was taught to look at his corner and wait for them to signal to him to get up and not stare at the ref. I guess the logic was that if he stared at the ref he might be glossy eyes or panicking.

Anyway, the fact foreman can clearly recall every detail and he is on steady legs on film shows it was not a KO in the truest sense of the word. By that i mean he wasnt actually knocked unconscios. He was counted out due to a foolish tactical error on the part of his cornermen and his own lack of experience being on the canvas (hard to criticize him for that) which all just further proves what a sokid chin Foreman had. Even after punching himself out to the point of exhaustion in muggy outdoor hot weather and getting nailed by dozens of 1-2's he was still conscious and on his feet. Not too many boxers could repeat that ordeal.

No foreman was not arguably winning. The judges had Ali ahead on the scorecards.

"At the stoppage, Ali led on all three scorecards by 68–66, 70–67, and 69–66"

Source: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Rumble_in_the_Jungle

As for comparing tyson picking ruddock compared to foreman picking Lyle, first of all, Lyle was ranked 5th in the world and had won his last fight by brutal KO over the dreaded and feared Ernie Shavers. Based on those 2 facts alone he was one of the most dangerous opponents someone could possibly pick, especially for a comeback. If that doesnt show balls, I don't know what does.

Tyson did not immediately fight Ruddock he had a soft touch in Tillman, then he impressively sparked out Stewart inn1 before finally facing Ruddock so not exactly the same. But either way credit to tyson since a lot of people avoided Ruddock at the time.

As for heart, no they're not in the same league. Again, foreman lost to Ali due to sheer exhaustion and a corner blunder in how they handled knockdowns. It takes a lot lf heart and determination to punch yourself out in the first place, he didnt "quit". And the Lyle fight speaks for itself. He rose not once but twice to win fight of the year and proved he wasnt just a front runner bully who couldn't handle adversity.

Tyson took big shots from Ruddock, true, but he also landed several blatant below the belt punches and Mills lane had to deduct points because it got so bad (not a lot of "heart" or competitive spirit there). Ruddock also loaded up on the smash over and over like an idiot and neglected his right hand. When your opponent loads up, it becomes that much easier to brace yourself and anticipate/block/counter/etc.

Last thing i wanted to address that's semi related, Tyson often went into "silent agreements" where he and the opponent both agree to take a breather in a clinch. Smith and Green showed just how easy it was to tie up or outgrapple Tyson and that was in his prime. Foreman would never agree to these conditions and would maul, push, or manhandle the instant Tyson tries to do the whole weave, charge in, clinch, reset, load up strategy. Going to the body would also be dangerous as foreman himself was a devastating body puncher and he'd be right in the line of fire for a foreman uppercut.

He also better not try to do any dirty arm breaking or elbowing because, let's just say it wouldn't end well for him. Foreman was a feared mugger in one of the worst neighborhoods before he touched a boxing glove.

 

Difference is Foreman won with these conditions. Tyson folded like a little *****.

 

Not until Tyson lost to Holyfield did ANYONE claim that Foreman would've beaten Tyson. In fact, Foreman wishes he could do what Holyfield did.

 

It's a testament to Foreman's chin because that same hook (granted it might not have been as good as it used to be) dropped and stopped many fighters.

All those fighters you listed gave Tyson trouble at one point or another despite most of them being past their prime and/or junkies. Douglas never let Tyson in the fight? I think you need to re-watch round 8.

and they are recognized as being lesser hearted champions. Not that it's necessarily correct but that's the general perception.

This is an extortion lie. You are purposely leaving out information to mislead others. Ali, Louis, Dempsey, Frazier, Holmes, Patterson, Marciano, etc ALL got off the canvas and went in to win.

LOL Lewis was down twice in his entire career. Tyson was down I believe triple that amount.

He didn't really put Tyson down? What happened in round 6 of their first fight then? Did Tyson want to lay down?

How the hell did he quit? he gave it His all (however poor his fight plan was) and floored by a viscous combo.

You're questioning his heart because he was dropped in the 12th round while behind on the cards and got back up? Yeah that sure doesn't compare to Tyson being on the ground looking for his mouthpiece like a dummy

 

Typical Tyson fanboyism. If he really wanted to continue he would've gotten up immediately and let the ref put his mouth piece in.

This is an outright lie. Foreman was not winning that fight by any means of the definition. Foreman was down on All cards. He also still tried to get up and beat the count.

Again, this is a flawed way of analyzing. You are intentionally taking a version of Foreman who hadn't fought in 2 years whe picking Tyson at his very best. How about picking Tyson the night of the Douglas fight? Are you willing to do that?

only in your ridiculous biased mind. The majority of use rate Foreman ahead of Tyson in both Heart and Chin. And for good reason.

I already did. Foreman in two rounds (round 4 and 5 against Lyle) showed more heart than Tyson did his entire career.

 

Frazier only landed like 2 or 3 left hooks. Your arguments are so biased, it's not even funny lol. You think Frazier-Foreman 1 showed how great Foreman's chin was? Wtf. I've never heard of this one before. This is like pointing to Lewis-Ruddock and saying "Look, Lewis fought a big puncher for 5 minutes and didn't get hurt. Great chin on this lad".

I mentioned Berbick, Tubbs, Williams, Pinklon, and Tucker. It's funny because you know none of these guys were past their prime so you added the "and/or junkies" lol. If you're gonna reply with "Were they not junkies?", provide some evidence on how their addiction affected their performance against Tyson. Stop arguing like a child.

Tucker won 2 rounds. The others won 0 imo. So much trouble.

How did Douglas let Tyson back in the fight? Tyson fought his way back.

That wasn't my point. I'm saying that just because someone doesn't get off the canvas, it doesn't mean they have less heart. When Lewis went down, he went down for good. Same thing with Tyson. All fighters are different. Tyson suffered one knockdown in his first 52 fights (pre-Lewis). That was against Douglas. I don't count the Holyfield one (explained later). He was dropped once within the first 17 years of his career. The second time he was dropped was against Lennox Lewis at the age of 36. That's a granite chin. He tried to get up against Douglas but he couldn't beat the count. That's called getting knocked out. If we're talking about the Holyfield knockdown, Tyson got back up and fought on until he got knocked out. He didn't win because he was the lesser fighter on that given night. Not because he lacked heart.

Lewis was down twice as a champion. He was down twice when he was supposed to win. Tyson was down just once when it mattered (Douglas fight). As I said earlier, the second time Tyson was dropped was against Lewis. And since you love the McBride and Williams fights so much, we'll make it 4. If you wanna add Holyfield knockdown, go ahead. This is dumb af.

Holyfield hit him to the chest, threw Tyson off balance. Watch the fight.

Ok. Prove it. You said "he gave it his all". Back that statement up. To me "giving it your all" is going out on your shield. The way Tyson did against Douglas/Holyfield/Lewis. Foreman didn't do that. He quit. He wasn't floored by no vicious combo. Those were arm punches. Don't bs me. I don't like that.

Yup, fighting till you can't fight no more is heart. Foreman didn't do that against Ali. If he had enough energy to get back up before the count was over and walk back to his corner, he could have continued. Tyson still got up from the knockdown against Douglas even though he didn't know where he was. He didn't beat the count but he tried. How is that not "heart"? And you just compared the knockdown against Douglas to Foreman-Young. Foreman got dropped by Young. Jimmy Young. How tf are you comparing that to Douglas-Tyson? Of course Foreman got back up. Because he got dropped by Jimmy ****in Young.

 

To be fair I have a slight bias against Ali and I’ll happily admit that, but I could actually see 70s Ali (pre Foreman) besting Tyson in a 15 rounder. He’d get massacred early on and absorb a lot of punishment, but probably manage to stop Tyson in the championship rounds

 

Actually that makes perfect sense when you know that I base my ATGs on career-long accomplishments as much as anything else. Mike just plain did more than Bowe...but I feel the Holyfield-beating Bowe would have knocked 1987 Mike senseless (Bowe had too great an uppercut, and was an excellent inside fighter, plus he was just plain much bigger and at times even more bullying than Mike).

I don't base my ATGs necessarily on who would beat who...Lennox Lewis beat Holyfield yet I still place Holy higher than him.

 

Sometimes I wonder if certain people saw a different fight in Zaire. Ali made George look bad in every round...even the commentators were convinced he'd win after five. It wasn't even close, Ali never really seemed to get badly hurt...he only got caught flush a few times.

Foreman was beat up and done by the time Ali floored him. The fact is, GF probably could have been finished one or two rounds earlier (I blame the heat), he looked that bad.

 

I think the 70s heavyweight scene is a bit overrated. It was better than the 80s scene, but people get rose-tinted glasses over Ali, Frazier, etc.
In the early 2000s there was Vitali, Wlad, Byrd and Lewis. I would put those four equal to the best four heavyweights of any other era.

I think Vitali would have dominated the 70s and 80s. Perhaps he would have lost once or twice, but he would have been top dog.