Frazier’s Chin Rating?

You can’t WATCH a punch and determine that punches relative power. It’s only it’s EFFECT that provides a clue. As an example the second knockdown of Frazier in 73 vs Foreman or the viscous right uppercut left hook that Louis nearly decapitated Galento.

 

Houdini,

The effects of medium level hitters, who hardly landed much on Frazier that showed EFFECT is what I am talking about. Is that better?

If Frazier fought Shavers and Cooney when he was 35 and 37, don't think he would be blown out too? Please answer this question as it will tell me everything I need to know about this conversation. 2nd time asking the question.

 

No. You and everyone here knows the comments you made that were completely false concerning Johnsons bouts with Moran and Flynn. That is until the overwhelming eye witness testimony that was posted showed otherwise. You very quickly stopped making such ridiculous and false claims. Now you are backtracking.

Again you can not compare two different fighters chins as you are trying to do. Completely illogical. Boxer/puncher vs a slugger.

This HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH the rumor that Frazier koed Norton in sparring. It does have allot to do concerning reputation FROM the gym over many years which is then exemplified in the ring during actual bouts. This LONG history is why Nortons chin is correctly thought of as shakey while Fraziers much more sturdy. The idea that this long history is somehow wrong and you with no background from those times only looking at paper records is correct is laughable. Suggest you stop trying to alter well known well understood boxing history. Attempts such as this cannot go well for you.

 

What Shavers and Cooney would have done against Frazier is completely irrelevant to the conversation. What is relevant is the very well known history which you are unfamiliar with as you did not live through the era.

 

Wrong again, I was watching boxing in the 1970's with interest as a child. I've probably seen over 2,000 heavyweight fights, many of which were before I was born or seldom re-aired.I have a decent collection of boxing DVD's / VHS, which includes many of Frazier's harder to view matches.

You can not answer my question, which tells me everything. I'm using your own language to prove my point. The effect that Frazier showed when medium level puncher's landed without suffering an attrition like beating I might add, underscores my point. There's not much else to say. Also stop distorting my positions. I re-stated them and they have nothing to do with this thread. Never did I ever say Flynn was in the lead. Show me. You can't and won't because I never said that.

Now watch this. I'm a Wlad fan. No way did he have a good chin, he just became very good at defense and protecting it. See how easy that was to say? Can you be as objective?

 

A 6? Seriously?

By your own definition you're wrong! Neither Foreman nor bonavena stopped frazier the moment they landed.

@Mendoza what do you rate Frazier's defense on a scale of 1-10?

 

A 6 is better than average on a 1-10 scale, isn't it? Just not good, very good, excellent or great.

Foreman quickly hurt Frazier and floored him! Frazier, by his own admission, says he was close to defeat with Bonevena in their first match, which I scored as a draw.

Where do I rate Frazier's defense? Not an easy question to answer as he could slip and duck, and had a quick hook to land if the other guy missed. How about average at the distance range of a jab, and above-average up close to those who lacked in-fighting skills.

But the clear answer is this. Foreman who was not a fast handed or an excellent boxer by any means and Bonevea had no issues landing. Buster Mathis was ahead on point for a few rounds. None of these guys were Ali as a boxer.

Frazier's buzz saw attack vs. non-punchers, especially up close combined with his fast hands put the other guy on defense for the most part. You could say his offense was part of his defense.

If clinching is part of defense, Joe wasn't very good at that.

If you want a number for Frazier's defense, I'll say 6.5. I do think he would be in trouble vs. the power punchers who had a much longer reach and good jab. Or vs. anyone who can manhandle him in a clinch. In the end defense, is not getting hit often, and making people miss. There are different ways to do it.

Frazier was sort of a 1 trick pony. You knew what he would do, and he was only effective in fighting one way. Speed, a great left hook , heart and stamina is what he had. A jab, uppercut, or right hand, not so much.

 

Ali was punching with bad intentions in Manila. Frazier took wicked shots, it was one of the greatest displays of chin and heart in the history of Boxing. Ali was always in awe of Joe's chin/toughness. He scared him in a sense. Anyone that you hit with your best punches and they keep coming for you without being weakened or even slowed would be the last guy you want to see.

 

So much fail here.....

The only legitimate modern puncher Frazier met in Foreman bounced him around like a ping pong ball.....fact.....twice....fact......he went down from grazing shots.....pretty much when ever Foreman landed anything Frazier either went down or buckled. Fact.

Thru his entire career Frazier was steered clear of world class punchers except a green Foreman, all Fraziers mileage comes from FOTC against a rusty, diminished forced exile Ali.............no Vietcong Ali BS and Frazier would be a footnote because he would have never beaten a prime Clay/Ali......the proof is in the pudding, he lost 2 out of three and is 1-4 in his signature fights, think about it.

A lot is said about his bob and weave, lol, so how come his face looked like a moon crater in almost every fight he faced a live body ?

I do not agree with Mendizzy on most things but he is dead on with Fraziers chin rating at a 6.

For comparison, a shot to shid, ghost of Mike Tyson took numerous full bore right hands from Lewis without going down or getting bounced around, ONE similar right hand send Rahman into lights out dream land...........Tyson eventually said F it because he was severely outclassed due to being a complete shell of his former glory but his chin never betrayed him.

Conclusion: Frazier could not count on his chin against severe hitters. End of. Neither could Lewis or WK.

 

Just like I predicted.

You cannot have a 6 in chin AND a 6 for defense and have success as a swarmer in the heavyweight division. He would have been stopped far more often if that were the case.

 

Just as you predicted what?

1 ) Which puncher did Frazier ever beat? You tell me. Whichever name you come up with an over inflate as a puncher, I could name 50 better who hit harder. That explains his success vs..the field he fought, minus Foreman.

2 ) He would have been stopped more often is he 1 ) fought more punchers, which obviously did not do, and 2 ) didn't retire so young. No doubt about it.

3 ) If his chin and defense were as good as you are indicating, he would not have worn down as quickly!

So in your opinion, what is Frazier's chin level and how good is his defense on a scale of 1-10. I said 6 and 6/5 by the way, not 6, and 6. We might not be far apart. Or we might.

 

^^ Nails it. One thing, Lewis and Wlad due to their size and artillery match up far better vs punchers that Frazier would, who did not hit as hard, was about 6" shorter and lacked reach big time in addition to not having much of a right hand. Wlad and Lewis also fought a much better group of punchers...the type Frazier avoided.

As a Wlad fan its obvious he did not; have a good chin, some fans can admit such obvious stuff, others dig in their heels. It's not like Frazier is a mystery with little or no film on. We have plenty.

 

1-no you cannot. Any list of 50 hardest punchers becomes extremely subjective after the first 5 obvious ones (Tyson, Liston, foreman, Wladmir, Louis, etc). It becomes even more subjective across eras.

Frazier ducked no one. Where were all the so called devastating hitters he avoided? Shavers was kod by quarry and Stander and Lyle. He kept losing whenever he stepped up, that's shavers fault. And he beat 2 of those guys who kod shavers! If anything he would have been critiiczed for facing him. Show me a point in time when it would have made sense for him to fight shavers, either through the rankings or because of the potential big money draw. Remember shavers was never a champion nor a mandatory challenger/in a position for an elimination bout.

The only other major punchers he didnt fight were Lyle and Liston. Lyle, like shavers, often lost when be stepped up and lost to the men whom frazier faced (quarry, foreman, Ali). Liston was black balled and accused of fixing fights and fled to Europe. Funny thing is, Frazier was negotiating to face Liston before his sudden death.

Anyone who stops 50% or more of their opponents in the heavyweight division obviously has decent power. Enough to get your respect and enough to rock or drop most fighters with a flush power combination. Unless you're feather fisted, any fit grown man with years of boxing training over 200 lbs can rattle you with a clean shot.

Ali, Mathis, Chuvalo, and Bonavena all had a 60% ko ratio or higher. They could obviously bang decently hard. Id rate them at least 6-7/10 bare mininum in terms of raw power and finishing ability.

Frazier owes his success to his tremendous hard work, incredible stamina, head movement, blistering body shots, and of course his unmatched swarming and left hooks. He was an excellent amateur and pro and cleaned out his division. He had the balls to rematch BOTH of the only 2 men to drop him. Had nothing to do with him supposedly hiding from or not facing any "punchers".

2-you obviously dont realize how difficult it is to be a swarmer.

A) a swarming style is high risk, medium reward. Even if you have lots of stamina and overwhelm with volume, theres no guarantee you'll stop the opponent.

B) Thus, it is absolutely necessary that you have good accuracy, good technique, and you are responsible defensively and/or have a good enough chin to take a few shots to land your own. All these ingredients are necessary because if you slack off you'll quickly lose rounds and then drop a decision.

C) a swarmer who is shorter than average with short arms like frazier had to do all the above AND have good head movement and the ability to slip shots and get within range. You have to be a good body puncher, otherwise all that pressing forward to get in range will be fruitless because your opponent will have no incentive to back off of you and they will have the stamina to keep moving away if they have the legs. You must kill the body to set up shots upstairs if you're short.

Even if a swarmer has all the above categories, against men who average 2-3 inches taller with longer arms combined with the fact frazier had partial blindness in one eye, would swell up easily, and was not particularly fast on his feet nor blessed with superb athleticism means that even someone with only above average hand speed and power could often land first before frazier got within his preferred range. He simply had no choice but to have a tight guard, grit his teeth, and force his way inside sometimes.

Such a taxing style with so many disadvantages meant he would not be successful without having either a superb chin and/or superb defense. You simply cannot have success at heavyweight being mediocre in both categories. Unless you're one of those people who thinks every opponent other than foreman was feather fisted? Newsflash: there's levels to punching power, and power isnt everything. You have to have the skill and timing to deliver that power. Frazier faced all kinds of boxers, movers, counter punchers, brawler, etc and most guys in the 60's and 70's had superb skill.

3-see above. He wore down due to the style itself, happens to every swarmer. A clearly past his prime frazier actually lasted longer against foreman the 2nd time. Maybe defense and strategy played a role?

How many boxers do You see getting 6x after being dropped by foreman? An average jaw would have submitted after no more than 3.

Foreman is also an excellent finisher with good killer instinct. I believe Alex Stewart was the only fighter in 81 fights to be dropped by Foreman and make it to the final bell, and that was an ancient version of foreman. So the fact frazier got up 6x and wasnt counted out is astounding.

 

Show everyone where I wrote your lies included “Flynn was in the lead?” You stated Flynn was giving Johnson a tough fight. You also stated that Moran did the same. All lies which you stopped promoting when the actual ringside reports were posted.

Again Nortons shaky chin was well understood all through the 70’s. It had nothing to do with his KO losses to Garcia and Foreman. These were the visual manifestations of what everyone knew of Norton from gym wars since the early 70’s.

In contrast Frazier had no such “baggage”.

Again you cannot compare a swarmer to a boxer puncher via like opponents in an effort to determine relative chin toughness.

 

Now you are lying. I said, show me where said what you claim I said about Flynn? You can't. Never did I say Flynn even won a round. When the news came out about Johnson tiring, it was just another cloud over his very poor title reign.

Flynn was a joke of a title defense, Moran a slightly better than average white hope.

I do think Moran gave Johnson a fight, meaning he won his share of rounds, and there were many close rounds. You are bringing this up for what reason? It has nothing to do with Frazier. I think Frazier would savage Flynn and Moran, and beat Johnson as well, but this a Frazier durability thread.

How many times was Norton stopped before the age of 35, with far more fights than Frazier? Yep, just twice. If his chin was as bad as you say, it would have happened more often.