Frazier’s Chin Rating?

The only liar is you. Everyone here knows what you stated repeatedly about these two very one sided bouts in an effort, as typical a very unsuccessful effort, to smear Jack Johnson. Funny you stopped any mention of these two bouts once the evidence was posted that showed they were completely one sided.

Frazier had the better chin as you cannot be successful fighting that style and be weak chinned. Had Norton possessed the same style of Frazier and fought the same opponents he would have been stopped many more times. Norton did not have the durability to fight a swarmers style.

 

Glass city, you didn't answer my questions. On a scale of 1-10 where would you place Frazier's chin. this isn't hard. Give me a number. I replied when you asked.

" Ali, Mathis, Chuvalo, and Bonavena all had a 60% ko ratio or higher. They could obviously bang decently hard. Id rate them at least 6-7/10 bare mininum in terms of raw power and finishing ability. " - Glass City Cobra

I could name 50 who hit harder, and did so. It took me about 5 minutes

You might strike 1, 2 or 3, I can replace them with 10 or more if I think about it.


Sullivan
Fitzsimmons
Jeffries
Sharkey
McVey
Wills
Demspey
Willard
Langford
Godfrey
Schemling
Louis
Baer
Marciano
Patterson
C Williams
Liston
Ingo
Shavers
Lyle
Foreman
Cotezee
Page
Cooney
Bruno
Tyson
Douglas
McCall
Morrison
Ruddock
Tua
Ikebuchi
Lewis
Moorer
Sanders
Bonecursher Smith
Witherpsoon
Hide
Bowe
Wlad
Vitlai
Hide
Brewster
Ibragimov
Wilder
Joshua
Ajabaga - Watch him hit
Makmudov - Watch him hit
Galento
Fulton

Of the guys you named, well Ali rocked Frazier and stopped him. Bonavena floored him twice, almost Ko'ing him. Mathis according to him hurt Frazier, Chauvalo didn't last long enough or land anything significant. He got hurt quickly. Those are the best punchers Frazier fought aside from Foreman, and by no means were Ali, Chuvalo, or Bonaevna big punchers. Solid hitters would be better description.

Stop with oh he was a swarmer. So was Tua, his chin was a rock. And Tyson who was pretty durable as well. They had no such problems taking punches, had an even shorter reach than Frazier and were also shorter in statue. You theory has lots of holes ,and no one can see Tua or Tyson getting stunned as easy or dropped by the non Foreman level puncher that did exactly that to Frazier.

 

If you are going to accuse anyone, show proof. You can't. You make stuff off and misquote, and I'm being kind.

I've seen you be foolish before. Even the guy who was just banned called you out at times. Enough already and stick to the topic of the thread. I posted clear evidence here, you didn't do one thing to dispel it.

 

We literally don't even have footage of Sullivan and he's the first you mention? That's pretty silly of you. You mentioned Hide twice. Witherspoon doesnt hit harder than Bonavena or Chuvalo, maybe not even Ali. He went the distance with Ribalta, Williams, and Golota and none of them were very durable.

You could produce a list of 200 men and it wouldn't matter. Its very subjective across eras. Nothing you wrote is a "fact", were you punched by frazier's opponents and the 50 fighters you listed...? I didnt think so.

Everyone gets rocked. Ali rocking frazier one time in 44 rounds means he has a bad chin? Ali has one of the best stoppage rates in title fights, he had power and was a good finisher. Bonavena did not "almost ko" him, he went the distance with him twice!

Tyson was stopped more times than Frazier was. The fact Tua had a solid chin and didn't get stopped doesnt prove my theory wrong that a swarmer needs to have a solid chin, solid defense or both, it only proves my point! So...thanks I guess?

 

You don't seem to understand the difference. Joe Frazier fought to win, every minute he was in the ring. From the Gold Medal to Jumbo Cummings. He was always throwing leather, fighting to win.

Mike Tyson against Lewis for example tightens up, doesn't throw or take chances, bites his gloves and braces himself for an asswhipping. Ofcourse he would be harder to KO because he's not taking any chances and leaving any openings. Yet he still took 10 counts over and over. Frazier never, not once took 10.
Tyson couldn't of taken the punches Frazier took. How many rounds does Tyson last in Manila? Less than 10 certainly. The way Ali was ripping he doesn't see the 8th.

 

Mate I felt like standing and applauding after reading that.

Simply outstanding analysis and great insight. Fantastic stuff!

 

But this is Tyson.

Buster Douglas who couldn't knock out Dee Collier or David Jaco among plenty of others has morphed into a power puncher on the basis of KOing Tyson alone. Holyfield who the knock on him was of his lack of power back in the 90's is now considered an underrated puncher on the strength of stopping Tyson. Maybe, just maybe Tysons chin isn't the unbreakable rock that people think?

Lewis wasn't fully committing to punches in the early rounds against Tyson instead being content to pick Tyson apart and break him down. Steward was admonishing Lewis between rounds for not sitting down on his punches and putting Tyson away. As soon as Lewis did start committing to power punching the fight ended very shortly afterwards with Tyson flat on his back.

 

Douglas hurt Tyson in the 10th. Holyfield hurt Tyson in the 10th. Lewis hurt Tyson in the 8th. Bonavena dropped Frazier twice in the 2nd. Ramos hurt Frazier in the 2nd. Foreman dropped Frazier 3 times in the 1st round. Lewis might not have been sitting down on his punches but I think he still hit harder than Ali and it took him 8 rounds to finally hurt Tyson. Ali was hurting Frazier as early as the 2nd round in Manilla. Both washed up fighters but one still had a solid chin.

 

Frazier was susceptible early but generally recovered and absorbed punches well late in fights (excepting against Foreman).

Tyson absorbed punishment well early (getting wobbled by Bruno in the first being the obvious exception and getting floored in the 6th by Holyfield) but against these moderate punchers in Douglas and Holyfield he got broken down and once he was hurt he didn't recover and in fact never once got off the floor to win in his career.

Tyson probably had the sturdier chin but he didn't have the recovery of Joe.

 

I just love boxing and I like picking things apart in my head I guess.

yes you guys are discussing 2 different qualities. Tyson likely had a better chin but poor recovery once he did get rocked. Frazier was the opposite.

Stamina and heart are 2 x factors that play a huge role as well. No one disagrees frazier had the advantage in both categories over Tyson, hence him getting off the floor to win some fights and having way more late round rallies and knockdowns than Tyson.

 

Frazier rarely took punishment late in fights. Frazier and Tyson are completely different in that regard. One started strong, the other finished strong. Late fight was Frazier's fight. He didn't get hurt late because he was in control. Tyson ate a big right hand from Bonecrusher (round 12) and he took it well. Stood toe to toe with Ruddock in round 11/12.

Frazier was dropped twice by Bonavena in the 2nd round, hurt by Ramos in 2nd, and hurt by Ali several times in Manilla (first 3 rounds). Compare that to Tyson eating a big uppercut against Tucker (round 1), the left hook against Bruno (round 1), the left hook-right uppercut combination against Ruddock (round 6 of first fight), and the left hook that knocked Tyson's mouthpiece out (6th round of second fight). Those were big punches from 3 legitimate punchers (Bruno and Ruddock in particular). Tyson could take a big punch and continue walking forward without getting wobbled or going down. Frazier couldn't do that. He could do it against guys like Ali/Ellis/Foster but I doubt he could do it against Bonecrusher/Bruno/Tucker/Ruddock etc.

(My whole argument is, it's difficult to compare their recuperative ability. Continue reading if you got time to waste)

We see fighters get up from early knockdowns all the time. But when a fighter gets dropped late-fight, it's a lot harder to recover. Especially if you were getting beaten up throughout the fight.

Frazier got off the canvas twice to beat Bonavena. Do you think Frazier would've recovered equally well if I replaced Bonavena with Holyfield? Because recovery isn't just your ability to recuperate, but also the circumstances. Frazier had opportunities to recover early on because he was easier to hurt. And it's easier to recover against mediocre punchers while you're still fresh (Ramos could punch but he was a mediocre fighter). Tyson's opportunities to recover came after prolonged beatdowns. Tyson was never dropped/hurt badly in the first 3 rounds. Frazier was only dropped/hurt badly in the first 3 rounds (Machen didn't hurt him that bad). And Tyson fought way more punchers than Frazier.

Frazier couldn't recover from the first big punch Foreman landed. Frazier's heart kept him in that fight, not his ability to recover. Foreman dropped Pedro Agosto 5 times in 4 rounds (Pedro got up from all 5). Foreman had to drop Brassell 4 times in the first round to stop him. Dropped Bailey 7 times (4 rounds) and Eastling 5 times (3 rounds). Just because Frazier got up from 6 knockdowns, it doesn't show great recovery imo (great heart). Frazier never recovered in that fight.

Watch the last 20 seconds of round 10 (Tyson-Holyfield 1). Holyfield hurt Tyson and teed off. Holyfield was going for the kill. Tyson was out on his feet, walked back to his corner, and came out for the 11th round. And he wasn't wobbling. He recovered well but Holyfield had all the momentum. Holyfield started teeing off again in the 11th and forced the ref to stop the fight. You can say that Tyson simply had a great chin but he was getting hurt by a lot of those punches and he never went down. Why is going down/getting wobbled and getting back up considered great recovery? What about a guy eating big punches and recovering within seconds? Tyson did that all the time. I'm sure the punches Bruno/Tucker/Ruddock landed shook Tyson but they couldn't put him down or even wobble him. When Tyson got in trouble, it was due to accumulated punishment. I don't think the only times Tyson needed to recover was when he got stopped by Douglas, Lewis, and Holyfield. I'm sure there were other moments where Tyson recovered but they're overlooked because he didn't get dropped or wobbled. When he did, it's because he was ****ed.

Guys like Bonavena/Ramos/Ali would never be able to hurt a fresh Tyson. So how can I say Frazier had better recovery than Tyson? Tyson wouldn't get hurt by the punches Frazier recovered from. And I highly doubt Frazier could recover from some of the punches Tyson shook off.

Tyson definitely had a better chin. I'll give recovery to Frazier but I do think it's debatable.

 

What Holyfield? Frazier has a 9 chin
Ali 10
Frazier 9
Tyson 8
Holmes 7-8
Evander 7-8

 

Yeah I didn't get that either. You can't have it both ways.

 

No way Tyson lasts as long as Frazier did in Manila (or Ali for that matter). His chin simply wasn't on that level. Not a knock against him. Very few were.

 

Cobra,

Frazier said he was close to KO vs Bonavena who's word should I take, yours or his?

If Frazier fought as long and as many times as Tyson did, out of his prime, he would be KO'd more often. Come on man. Tyson has a MUCH better chin than Frazier.

It' not getting rocked, it's who rocked Frazier and they were NOT punchers that makes his chin suspect and not very good.

You are mistaken on Witherspoon, he had a very good right hand. No one here questions that John L Sullivan could not hit. I listed him first because that's how I stared when thinking about it. 1890 to present. Not because I think he hit the hardest. Okay, I listed Hide twice. My bad. The created list was something I breezed through. Like I said If you strike 1-3, I could come up with 10 more. I missed Elmer Ray, Tommy Gomez and Mike Weaver for example. Subjective yes, but 90% of people who known boxing would say the guys I listed hit harder than anyone Frazier beat..and you should know that.

My points were proven.

1 ) Frazier never beat a good puncher. Bonevena was about the best he fought, and he floored him twice and nearly finished him. The first fight is a draw on the 10 point must system. While Frazier won the re-match clearly, this fight show the limits of his chin, those who hit on Bonevna level ( A large amount in history ) or harder at least 50 guys could stop Frazier and do not need to be winning many rounds to do it.

2 ) He also never fought punchers, aside from Foreman ( Insert excuses ). I have heard Frazier's own camp didn't want to put him in there with Sonny Liston. And they were wise. When you have a swarmer, and he doesn't have a Mike Tyson or David Tua level chin, you don't want to put him in there with big punchers. Instead, they sought out safer matches with boxer types that did not hit hard for the most part, which gave Frazier the syle advantage.