Bernard Hopkins 160 title thoughts

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by UK.Boxing, Oct 24, 2019.



  1. christpuncher

    christpuncher Active Member banned Full Member

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    I always felt he was overrated, he just had good longevity. People putting him up there with Hagler and Monzon is nonsense.
     
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  2. christpuncher

    christpuncher Active Member banned Full Member

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    Apparently Hagler's middleweight opposition was weak? But Trinidad and De La Hoya? They weren't even middleweight's, let alone good middleweights.
     
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  3. christpuncher

    christpuncher Active Member banned Full Member

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    GGG's era was overrated? But you give Hopkins credit for beating De La Hoya, who had one win at middleweight, against Felix Sturm, an average middle who won a split decision against Matthew Macklin,who GGG destroyed in 3 rounds like he was nothing. GGG is **** though, obviously, De La Hoya would've KO'd him surely?
    Trinidad's claim to fame at middleweight....William Joppy.
     
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  4. Tramell

    Tramell Hypocrites Love to Pray & Be Seen. Mathew 6:5 Full Member

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    Are you posting me? I never said 3G era was weak, I compared if we say Hop's era was weak 10 years...do we do the same for 3G? they rule iron fist to a decade! gr8 stuff!
    Not me.

    And I never said Hagler's era was weak. I quoted Jake Lamotta.

    My take is solid & never changes. I base all on one system: each era is unique and only those who are born in a preceding era will dog the current era. Every Post I've written on this topic bares me witness.
     
  5. Tramell

    Tramell Hypocrites Love to Pray & Be Seen. Mathew 6:5 Full Member

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    See below.
    Meant to compare: Just like Hop's era we are doing the same to 3G.

    As I respect Monzon & Marvin's era, Jake saw it as you see Hop's rule: nonsense to compare Marvin to Sugar Ray's era. I don't agree with him but I understand how older people see themselves in their skill set versus the in coming generation.
     
  6. Clinton

    Clinton Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Well John, Hagler's smaller guys were all ATGs. I don't rate Tito or DLH anywhere near as high as I rate Leonard, Duran and Hearns. Added to the fact that both Hagler and Monzon had more fights than Bhop despite Hopkins longevity. Also there are many on these boards that insist that Hopkins outgrew the middleweight division and had been cutting weight there even though he made 156 against Hoya less than a year before he lost to Taylor. I simply do not know and believe nobody will ever as well. The fact remains that Hagler and Monzon didn't have a problem making 160. Hopkins may have.
     
  7. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'm not sure Hopkins had a problem with making 160, for the most part. Nearing the end of his run - say, the Taylor bouts, he might well have been. He sure got big for the Tarver bout, in no time at all. It's hard to tell.
     
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  8. Tramell

    Tramell Hypocrites Love to Pray & Be Seen. Mathew 6:5 Full Member

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    Hey, Clinton! That seems to be where the line is drawn, those who see what they did & how great they did it (Duran., Leonard, Hearns), then those who say , at some point greatness is limited if you move up. At some point you won't bring that power or you may loses some of that speed. These guys took chances & moved up, thus questioning how then does a LW in Duran go 12 rounds with Hagler & not look impressive? Duran's competitiveness can be what you stated: a sign to his greatness.

    But it could've also been a sign as to what may have happened to Hagler had he tried to move up. If his power couldn't stop a LW in Duran, couldn't drop Leonard, but dropped Hearns who lost every fight via KO, then IMO it minimizes his gr8ness. Great MW whose best wins had to move up 1-3 weight classes. & Darn sure under rated boxer. Briscoe had him moving backwards, almost the whole fight, got to think he doesn't do much in a SMW class.

    I rate Tito up there, but not DLH, I agree he was good, not great.


    Isn't it possible that some of those fights Hagler had were against opposition that Hop or even Sergio Martinez to 3G could have beatan?

    Monzon had 99 fights
    James Toney had 90 fights
    Hagler had 67 fights in 14 years 1 weight class.(his era was the last to make thousands as a champ, not hundreds of thousands let alone millions. So he had to fight a lot to get $);)
    Hearns had 67 fights 29 years from WW to CW.
    Bernard had 65 fights only 2 less than Marvin & Hearns.
    Out of 28 years he began at SMW (2 fights), down to MW back up to SMW/LH.
    By count standard this drop's Leonard rock bottom with 40 fights in 20 years. His best wins Benitez-A back n forth war he had slug it out to win. Loses his 2nd title defense to Duran, but wins rematch. & a come from behind TKO over Hearns. 3, that's it. IMO that's his career in a nutshell. Beating Lalonde was the same deal- he was behind and had to fight his way to a win, not outbox Donny.
    Hearns fight 2 was despicable enough that Leonard has said on numerous occasions, "no draw, Tommy won it. I got dropped twice. Hard."

    Because I grew up watching Ray, I can attest to your admiration for him, what a boxer! A chin! Under rated power and speed. But if I didn't live in his era and had to look at 1. how many fights 2. How many ATG did he beat, his record aint looking so good.


    Not I! I am such a Bhop fan, that I can attest he started off at SMW. He moved down purposely and due to him being close to a vegetarian he rarely walked outside the weight he fought at. When Mackie Shillstone came to help with Tarver fight, Hop mentioned how much chicken/meat he had to eat to assist with a proper weight gain. I think you're questioning those who say he outgrew? If, so I agree with your take he didn't. He not only calculated it, but had the ass out audacity to say he would go back down to 160 to fight Floyd Mayweather IMO proves he did NOT outgrow MW. He started as a SMW.
    This content is protected


    Another Smoking GUN!
    This content is protected

    This was just 3 years before his last fight. A LHW talking dropping down to MW is not a fighter who has problems making weight.

    And just a small trivia, did you know Hop started off calling himself the Terror?:) Yup until I think his Mercado fight, he changed it to X.

    True!
    Mackie Shillstone and taking on a larger portion of eating meat can help anyone blow up!
     
    Last edited: Oct 30, 2019
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  9. JohnThomas1

    JohnThomas1 VIP Member Full Member

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    They were, not at middleweight tho of course. Duran get a lot of mileage out of Hagler's indecisiveness and tho an astonishing win Barkley isn't all that at 160. Not to take away from Duran, coming from 135 at that age was wowzers.

    But again the reason Hagler and Monzon (imo) get flak is because they completely dominated their division for many many years and did not have a crack at the bigger challenge above. Some hold this against them, some don't and to each his own. Monzon said at one point he was going to fight Foster. Countless fighters of various weights and era's have moved up even when they didn't have to in search or bigger challenges and greatness. Some didn't.

    Hopkins did go north and have a crack so of course he wouldn't cop the heat the other two did. He's not in that category. If people criticize them for not going up it's totally fair but it's also totally fair to appreciate they stuck to one division.

    Hagler and Monzon both have a lot of filler comparative to Hopkins. I'm not sure Monzon even fought a top 10 rated opponent in his first 79 fights. If there's any they would be few on the ground. After winning the title his next three opponents (non title fights) sported records of 37/36/7, 3/5/1 and 13/7/1. Monzon then went on his great title tear for 6 years. That's an enormous amount of pre-title filler tho. Hagler fought about 16 guys with losing records. Hopkins would have fought more top 10 opponents than either.

    The other fact is regardless of how many fights you have the years catch you up. SRL had very few fights comparative to many greats but age and father time caught him up big time regardless. I have no doubt whatsoever if Hagler and Monzon met Hopkins 25 years after all their careers started Hopkins would beat the hell out of them. The guys you used as an example (Cloud and Shumenov) fit this career timeline.


    I am one of them. You could see in his punch stats and energy that moving up had freed him up. Emanuel Steward stated the same.

    I'd hardly call this outgrowing the middleweight division in many ways tho. Remember at the point Hopkins moved up the other two retired. I have no doubt Hopkins could still make the weight but he chose not to as he probably realized he'd hit the wall and went after other challenges.

    Picking out one fight in which he came in under the limit tells us nothing really. He was bang on 160 both times vs Taylor and never went within 10 pounds of the limit again.

    The big thing to remember however is that a catchweight of 158 pounds was set for this fight.

    Well Hopkins didn't have problems for the entire period Hagler and Monzon didn't. Let's not cast shade and pretend he always had trouble making the weight and only moved up for that reason Clint.

    Anyway this is why the other two catch heat and Hopkins doesn't. He moved up, they didn't. How one factors this in is entirely up to the individual of course and can be strongly debated whichever way one looks at it mate.
     
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  10. Tramell

    Tramell Hypocrites Love to Pray & Be Seen. Mathew 6:5 Full Member

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    Gr8 stuff. I stayed away from Monzon, because I would be lying if I didn't say I got my Monzon degree from youtube university. His competition, I can't say. out of his 99 fights, I know about 8 fighters pretty well. The other 91?
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2019
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  11. HerolGee

    HerolGee VIP Member banned Full Member

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    whereas GGG was unfortunate to have a top ww/lmw move up? what you trying to infer here?
     
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  12. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I'd put most of it down to Shilstone. Going from a strained 169 (fight night weight) to a comfortable, fighting fit 182, in roughly six months, doesn't just happen by increasing meat intake.
     
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  13. Tramell

    Tramell Hypocrites Love to Pray & Be Seen. Mathew 6:5 Full Member

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    Unless it's Canelo meat?!:pesas:
     
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  14. Man_Machine

    Man_Machine Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    There are some special brands of meat, I hear :periodico:
     
  15. Loudon

    Loudon VIP Member Full Member

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    Bernard's career always stirs up a great debate.

    As you probably know, I've always been split by his reign/career.

    On one hand, his longevity was amazing, where he was fighting Taylor at 40 years of age, which was 4 years after beating Tito. And even if you don't like the guy personally, that's just an incredible achievement. But then on the other hand, by his own admission, he made incredible sacrifices in order to rule an average MW division, where he enjoyed size advantages over most of his opposition.

    He's on record stating that he could have moved up to SMW and LHW years earlier, but he didn't want to give up his advantages.

    He's also stated that if he could get a guy up to a weight that they weren't used to, he'd do that.

    Those statements above is why I'm only impressed by his longevity.

    Of course, he did nothing wrong. Nothing illegal. If he could make weight, he could make weight. But to me, it just showed a lack of ambition.

    Staying at MW racking up those defences, was easier than targeting the best SMW's and LHW's of the world.

    A guy like Hagler had completely different circumstances. He was fighting in the days of same day weigh-ins, where he often weighed in inside the limit, and there was no SMW division back then. He'd probably be a JMW today.
     
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