I would think beating a current and former middleweight champion while fighting at middleweight would be good enough to call oneself a middleweight.
I think Tito was a credible MW even though he didn't do much at the weight. Oscar didn't even beat Sturm and looked bad.
Oscar got it together somewhat for the Hopkins fight, but it definitely wasn’t a good weight for him. I can’t blame Oscar for taking the fight really. He gave Hopkins some problems.
Honestly John I never tried to cast shade that he always had trouble making weight. As I said before I simply do not know and neither does anyone else. I don't know why you wrote that. As far as Hopkins at 25 in beating the hell out of Monzon and Hagler 25 years into their careers, no doubt as I wrote before Hopkins longevity was incredible. And also he was fighting at a high level when he fought Shumenov. Hagler couldn't get out of the way of a Mugabi punch when he was just 31. Hagler was done in his early 30s and Monzon in his mid 30s. I would have loved to have seen Hopkins against Hagler or Monzon after say 55 fights into their careers. It's practically impossible to gauge Hopkins anyway due to his outrageous longevity. For example when was his prime- when he beat Trinidad? That's my guess.
I honestly believe Hopkins would not have moved directly into 175 in the late 70s and early 80s. His record at 175 is not special, and it would have been alot worse during that era.
Starting he was too powerful in his prime and good jr middle and welters. Name fighters in these divisions did not dare meet him. Hagler and Monzon’s legacy benefited from lower weight fighters moving up to 160. Ps. Your amigo Mcvey/Rainer/Tonto62 has been banned in case you didn’t know.
He didn't have trouble making weight as in he had to starve himself or dehydrate himself like some guys do in camp. But he had to live an extraordinary disciplined lifestyle where he made huge sacrifices in order to keep his weight low. He literally measured out units of food etc, even when he wasn't in camp. Mackie Shilstone said that he couldn't believe how it was physically possible for Bernard to keep making weight. Ordinarily, you'd praise a guy like that for their incredible discipline and professionalism. But it's hard to do that with Bernard when you know that he did it because it was easier than fighting better opponents at a more comfortable weight. That's my issue. I don't see it as incredible professionalism. I see it as a lack of ambition. Even when he'd unified at MW and there was nothing else to accomplish, he called out all of the JMW champs to come up and face him rather than moving up for a new challenge. We're not talking about a natural MW fighting in his natural weight class. We're not talking about a guy who stayed at MW because it was a thriving division. We're talking about a 6'1 guy who had a 75" reach, who squeezed himself down to fight mostly average opposition, because he didn't want to mix it with the better fighters in the divisions above. Personally, I cant give him credit for that. I know that the MW division was prestigious, but in my opinion he was hiding away there. That's honestly how I see it. Yes, his longevity was incredible. But I think he was a bully at MW. Regarding Marvin, yes, he never had Bernard's longevity. But then he fought more fights earlier on in his career which aged him quicker.
Not special? He was over 40. It’s maybe the best resume ever for over 40. Hopkins was extremely disciplined and could make 160 in any era.
there is noone of that name on that forum as far as i know, let me know what u mean. as long as you arent trying to put down GGG for failing against a former WW when hagler, hop and monxon didnt thats OK.
I know he was over 40. And as I have written over and over and over again, his longevity is outrageous and probably unmatched in the sport. But whether he was in his 20s, 30s, or 40s, it doesn't change the fact that his lightheavy resume is not special.
I agree. Hagler was physically and emotionally done at 32. Bhop started later due to prison- interestingly he weighed 177 in his losing pro debut btw-fought into his late 40s. It's very hard to gauge when Hopkins was prime. I am guessing against Trinidad, although some might say the Glencoffe Johnson version. Who knows? However as far as his being a weight bully is concerned, I don't agree with you there. If a fighter can legally make a certain weight, why shouldn't he?
I don't think he was a weight bully. A weight bully is someone who drains down and then who rehydrates by a huge amount in order to try and gain an advantage. He didn't do that. But yes, I think he was a bully. He enjoyed his advantages in height and reach, and he was often calling out the guys at JMW to go up. Yes, if he could make weight, there was nothing wrong with that. He was well within his rights to do so. He didn't cheat. What I'm saying is, I personally don't give him credit for it. If you want to, that's fine. But I never will, especially after listening to his comments. I'm not going to give him credit for calling out guys like Mosley and Oscar, when a rematch with Roy was there, as well as other challenges at SMW/LHW. I have to look at the circumstances. If the MW division was hot and there was nothing happening above, then that would have been okay. But that's not what happened. He cleaned out an average MW division and then looked at the guys below instead of moving up. So what was good about that? Nothing. That shouldn't be applauded. The only thing that should be applauded is that he was still fighting at an advanced age.
Amen. I have said this before when Mayweather v Pac was deciding the P4P title. One aged 36 and moving up to welter from jnr bantam. Another a 39 year old speedster who had lost a chunk of his career (and presumably speed) to prison who was fighting at 147 having started at 130lbs. And these were the best fighters in the world? Jesus Aitch! They called it the Seniors Tour when Hearns (30) fought Leonard (33). We knew boxing had slipped at that point but did we ever guess how far the sport would plummet?
Very good point. Yes, he beat up smaller guys as Monzon and Hagler did but, unlike those two, he beat up bigger ones too. Imagine Marvin in his mid to late 40s fighting light heavies like Kovalev, Tarver, Dawson, Pascal (in his own backyard. Twice.). Didn't like BHop as a fighter but you have to take your hat off to him for what he achieved at a higher weight as an older fighter.
What I also find interesting is that after moving up to lightheavy, he challenged Winky and Pavlik at 170 catchweights whereas Winky was a natural 154 fighting at 160 at that time and Pavlik was a natural middle. Both of them moved back down after their respective Hopkins fights.
