Liston vs Frazier

1. He came pretty damn close in the 2nd round of their 2nd encounter before the ref saved him.

2. That KD in Ali-Liston II almost certainly wasn't real.

3. Liston was never floored by the likes of Mike Bruce or anyone of that caliber.

 

What ATG heavyweight punchers did Frazier beat again?

 

I don't think Frazier hit as hard as Williams,and possibly no harder than DeJohn.

 

Frazier got up more times in one round than Liston did in his entire career.

Frazier also didn't get cold cocked with one shot by any sub 200 lb fighters unlike Liston.

 

Would that be because Sonny wasn't knocked down as many times as Frazier?lol Twice in his entire 54 fight career in fact.
Frazier was down 11 times in 37 fights!

Liston was an old man when 199lbs Leotis Martin ko'd him.

 

Liston never beat anyone as good as Frazier. Frazier beat better fighters than Liston, particularly when a Liston-Frazier fight was possible. Frazier would have run Liston out of the ring. From 1966 to his death Liston turned down offers to fight Chuvalo, Quarry (3x at least), and a title shot against Ellis. Liston wanted no part of guys that Frazier ran through.

 

Pre title Liston decapitates Frazier, imo.

 

I think it’s reasonable to state Quarry knocked out better fighters than the best punchers Sonny fought.

 

Frazier was a much better puncher. His landing ratio on good fighters was much higher. He landed more power punches per round than anybody else. And he hit Ali more times than anybody else did when Ali was still extremely elusive. By comparison Sonny couldn’t tag Ali a 10% as much.

As a punching proposition Frazier was a much more devastating obstacle than anybody Liston met. Williams and Dejohn are not comparable. Not by a long chalk.

In his prime Frazier had a fast left hook. He led with it, doubled up with it, long range, short range, and it was absolute dynamite. Every move he made had purpose. He had excellent slip rate. Joe cornered and backed up fighters, forcing everybody to fight his fight.

 

Did he fight a Foreman?

And Cleveland Williams isn't a facsimile for George.

Frazier seemed to absorb Ali's shots a whole lot better than Sonny did. I don't put much stock in the rematch as Liston clearly dogged it but even the first fight he was clearly stunned a couple of times by Ali and this version of Clay/Ali wasn't punching as hard as the version that met Frazier in my opinion.

 

I absolutely agree. Ali was hitting harder when he fought Frazier. If you watch their 1971 fight Ali came out and set about Joe. Sitting down, fully committed and teeing off for real. Part of his problem was Ali was trying to take joe out. And he just couldn’t do it. Ali would have flattened a lot of great fighters had he set about them the way he did Frazier in the first and second fights. Ali didn’t hit Foreman half as much with his best punches.

I don’t think Ali ever tried to take Sonny out or finish him off. He hit Sonny only in an effort to get his respect and still, as you say, Sonny did not absorb them particularly well. He certainly did not cope as well under half the fire Frazier did. Ali had sonny do the chicken dance a couple of times. Liston was not comfortable and very shaky. Bert Whitehurst got his attention. Zora Foley is said to have hurt Sonny. I think there are examples as evidence that show Sonny could be hurt and hit easier than folks realise.

 

Tough tough fight to judge. I can come up with great reasons for each fighter to win.
I lean towards Frazier slightly, here's why, Foreman said he couldn't move Liston the way he could other fighters when he sparred with him.

The problem with that is Liston didn't depend on physical strength the way Foreman did, he was much more a classical boxer that happened to be extremely strong. He wouldn't push Frazier off balance but try to stick him with his pole-axe jab, or catch him with a counter hook, or uppercut. And this is where I think Frazier would be in business.
Foreman didn't allow Frazier to set his feet, but Liston probably would, this is where the fight would become dangerous for him. Prime Frazier had some of the best head movement in heavyweight history especially considering the aggressive way he fought,Liston's hands speed was good, but nothing special , the same can be said of his feet. I see Frazier being able to avoid most of Liston's lethal firepower and timing him with his left hook.
This fight would be more too both fighters wheelhouse than dealing with a Foreman, or Ali . But I see Frazier being able to gradually wear Liston down, stopping him in the later rds... For Liston to win, he would need to do it within the 1st 4-5rds if he doesn't, he gets smoked.

 

This is 100% the way I see it. Frazier can unload more punches with a better slip rate than Sonny can. While Sonny times his jab Frazier is setting himself and can get two big shots home.

 

If much faster Ali struggled to catch or time FOTC Frazier, Sonnys in trouble even at his best, Joe beats him down late, I too believe Foreman never beat a prime Joe Frazier !

 

Maybe because he went down twice in his career and one of them almost certainly wasn't legitimate?

Liston was not coldcocked by one shot. He was hit by a viscous combo by a very hard puncher who literally killed a man. Oh yeah and Liston was at the very end of his career very possibly close to 50.