Liston vs Frazier

Frazier never kod Ellis ,Quarry,Chuvalo,Mathis, Ramos.They were all stopped on their feet or [Ellis ]retired by their corner.

 

Ellis was carried to his corner. He was out of it. Foster was out cold. These were devastating finishers.

Mathis was out of it. All 240 pounds or so that he was. Dropped like sack. He nearly broke the boards.

Bruno was stopped on his feet by Tyson because he was out in his feet. Nobody says Tyson didn’t hit Frank hard enough. And it’s the same with Frazier. When a fight is waved off it’s for the mercy of the fighters. They are still punched senseless whether they collapse or not.

Who the hell did Williams knockout for the 10 count who was any good?

 

In 1964 "He claimed to be 32 years old at the time of the bout, but many believed that his true age was closer to 40, perhaps even older" so if he was 40 or "perhaps even older" in 1964, simple math tell us over 5 years later he'd be at least in his upper 40s which as I said is very close to 50. Is it a bona-fide guarantee he was close to 50? No but it's a possibility.

Nice to see that's the only part of my post you're arguing.

 

Everthing you've said is true. But , the only thing I would add is the pace those two fighters fought that night. They fought like Middleweights . So yes Frazier did stay in a hospital for two weeks, and Ali landed hard and often. But Frazier made Ali miss a ton of punches with his head movement... I don't believe any other heavyweight in history would make Ali miss that many punches. Even that version of Ali who was slightly past his prime. So, perspective.

 

Joe is tailor made for Sonny Liston, a short man who comes right at him winging hooks. It is simply an impossible task for Frazier, he can't backup Sonny Liston and Joe can't fight backing up.This fight ends in round 4 after Joe is dropped twice,

 

Weve been down the Williams road a million times. The guy, for all of his reputation as a killer, never stopped anyone worth a ****. Period. Take a gander at his record and youll notice that anyone remotely top ten either beat him or lasted the distance. His depth of resume doesnt approach Frazier and frankly he didnt achieve nearly the success that Frazier did while competing in a weaker era.

 

From a pure power perspective quite likely. In terms of effectiveness it's close.

 

Um, (clears throat) an old Eddie Machen beat Jerry Quarry. And an older Floyd Patterson (not the prime Patterson who Sonny Liston destroyed twice) beat Bonavena and arguably beat Ellis for the WBA belt. An old Folley beat Bonavena, too.

(Clears throat again).

Don't mind me.

 

A hard puncher but hardly George Foreman in terms of power, size, strength and ability.

Foreman is the guy who's Frazier's so called chin issues are largely based on and the reason he's made an underdog against virtually any big puncher and I think it's nonsense. Foreman is one of the most powerful men in heavyweight history who was a stylistic nightmare for an already past prime Frazier. Foreman's mix of size, strength, tactics, power and mindset is fairly unique in boxing history. To think anyone else does what George did to Joe (especially prime Frazier) is a stretch in my view and thats including Liston, though I'm not saying Frazier beats him prime for prime either.

 

Angelo Dundee stopped the fight because Ellis didn't know where he was. He tried all the tricks he knows to revive him but Jimmy wasn't with us. Courtesy of Frazier's fists. Mathis and Ramos were rendered helpless. Quarry was just busted up. Chuvalo's eye socket was damaged by Frazier. Nobody had ever stopped Chuvalo before I don't believe. Even Ellis had never been off his feet as a Heavyweight until he met the powehouse from Philadelphia.

 

I agree with you in that I don't think anyone beats prime Frazier (including Foreman himself) in the matter Foreman beat him. Nobody has an easy night with him.

 

Fair points.
Frazier doesn't have chin issues but Liston can hurt just about anyone. Sonny doesn't have to do what Foreman did. Sonny was a smoother boxer than Foreman. He may take longer to hurt Joe. Once he does though Frazier is gonna have trouble getting through it.
If Frazier does get through the first couple rounds and he is still strong Sonny could be in for hell.
I gotta favor Liston overall.

 

High blood pressure, nothing to do with swelling put him in Hospital. Ali missed a hell of a lot