Liston vs Frazier

Klompy is an excellent poster but," gently corrects," are not words in his vocabulary, he is full on attack mode with every post,and it can get a bit wearing at times.

 

We should pay someone to "cry in his lap" ... maybe he'd lighten up. (LOL)

Anyhoo ... back to Liston and Frazier.

 

Most of this I agree with. But I don't agree with the implying Liston ducked tougher challenges.

 

Oh is that why? I always thought the eyes were watering because I just unloaded one to the back of her tonsils

 

That is correct but it doesn't fit in with Ali's rhetoric that he spewed for years after he lost. He couldn't even back Frazier up that night.

 

I wasnt implying anything. He absolutely ducked tougher fights post Ali. Its a matter of record. He was offered fights with Jerry Quarry by Aileen Eaton (numerous times) in Los Angeles, Don Fraser (in Sacramento), and Bill Miller (twice) in Las Vegas. He had been publicly calling out Quarry and yet when the chips were down and it was time to sign he wouldnt. In fact he appeared with Quarry in an exhibition bout in Vegas to hype what was supposed to be the signing of their fight. Liston fought Chester Walton while Quarry fought Gary Bates, his brother Mike, and another guy. It was Quarry's first appearance since the cast was removed from his broken back. When it came time to sign Liston said he wasnt interested. Then they were scheduled to fight in Houston but again Liston wasnt interested and instead went to St Louis and fought Billy Joiner who had already knocked out. He wanted an easier opponent than Quarry in Houston so the dug up Sonny Moore who had won just four of his last twenty fights and who Liston had already knocked out before. As if Liston didnt already know from personal experience how bad Moore was he had been ringside at Moores last fight where a totally shot, slow, and sloppy Zora Folley dominated him, dropped, and busted his face up like a ripe tomato before the bout was stopped. Liston was also offered a shot at Ellis' title but turned it down as well. All of these fights were for more money than he had made since losing to Ali but why risk upsetting the gravy train with a decent B side payday when you can make $20,000 a pop fighting sparring partners. Again, Liston fought exactly two contenders during his entire comeback. TWO. Henry Clark who was rated something like 7 and couldnt punch his way out of a paper bag and Leotis Martin (who despite being more highly rated than Clark had lost to Clark) who knocked him out cold. Dick Saddler wasnt stupid. He knew fighting for smaller purses as the former champion would earn more in the long run than fighting for one big purse and losing, damaging his reputation and marketability further.

 

What led them to believe his jaw might be broken?

 

If that were the truth the truth is odd. Both Frazier and Ali put more punishment on each other in Manila at advanced age yet neither went to the hospital. If Frazier stayed at the hospital so long because of 'the beating' he took that would suggest he had some sort of brain injury. That makes less sense.
Common sense and logic would suggest that Joe Frazier had high blood pressure coupled with the symptoms that come with it...perhaps by the tremendous effort that he gave from the training, the build up, pressure, death threats against his family, and ofcourse the fight itself. Ali's punches had the least if anything to do with it. Fighters with Frazier's style have a shorter window to their expiration date.
He took some damage to get in and get his shots off. He slipped alot of punches but he also took alot. Ali had the fastest hands in heayweight history. He walked through the man.
I think it's been established over the history of boxing that fighters with Frazier's style don't have long primes.
1. It's the punishment that accumulates over the course of his career. Even the fights he won he took damage. Quarry, Mathis, Ellis, Bonevena, Chuvalo etc. He went right into his opponents wheelhouse.
2. When a boxer has that style/ limitations they have to be 100% sharp on their game to fight at the highest level. Especially with so many good heavyweights around.
Even Henry Armstrong didn't stay prime that long. Marciano, Dempsey, Tyson.
Guys like Ali, Holmes, Lewis Johnson could come in 80% and you might not notice it as much because they have other dimensions to their game. They hold, rest behind their jab, they don't have to come forward.

 

I think Ali was certainly under the care of his own personal doctor Dr Ferdie Pacheco whom told Ali to retire after the last Frazier fight. The good doctor had a lot of concerns as a direct result after the final Frazier fight.

 

Frazier goes to sleep...........Frazier had ONE great performance in his career against a rusty Ali who the Feds deprived him of his prime....after that he never delivered again.

A blind man could see that the moment he met a legitimate Big skilled puncher he would get ko'ed.....and ko'ed he did against Foreman...and Foreman is skilled.....no skill would be max bear.......

My problem is that Frazier just got rolled twice like a kid....he was never in the fight despite landing his best left hook and Foreman never blinked....

Frazier will come right at Listons wheel house an d gets countered to death and stopped, he aint got the chin to survive elite bangers with skill....

I see at replay of the Patterson fights, maybe a little longer.

IMO, Fraziers power is over rated, especially his left hook..he is and never was a elite banger or lights out puncher.

 

Unfortunately for this narrative Liston was no Foreman. Not in style, size, strength, or even aggression. Im not even convinced he was durable or mentally tough as Foreman. Thats part of the issue here, people picking Liston continually draw comparisons to Foreman when they were nothing alike besides the fact that both were punchers.

 

We just have to agree to disagree......IMO it will never come down to grit ot heart etc....it will come down to chin and I do not rate Fraziers top notch........by far.....Ali was not a hard puncher, he was sharp but not hard...Liston quit twice and Foreman literally fell over from exhaustion after taking some decent hits.......same for me against Tyson, Frazier will get stopped mainly due to his chin.

 

The large haematoma on his right cheek courtesy of Frazier's left hook.Ali also had bruised hip bones.

 

Armstrong had 143 fights and was fighting up to 14 times a year.Rather different from Frazier's 37 fights.

 

No points this one Smokin Joe 5