Liston vs Frazier

Seriously ? Are you actually denying that Liston was a huge heavyweight KO puncher ? No spin or double talk .. simply yes or no ?

 

What on Earth can you deduce from what I said to conclude that I think Sonny wasn’t a puncher?

Sonny was a huge puncher. That is why I have said many times that it is not easy fight for either of them. Sonny always has a punchers chance of beating Frazier.

I just think you need to address the points I made about drawing generalisations from a fight between men at the opposite ends of their careers and applying it “rock paper scissors” style in the Frazier v Liston matchup.

 

Maybe because of this ...

"monster power as demonstrated on Patterson And Harris.. certainly the two highest regarded men Sonny ever knocked out on film ...but both are one size and one level below Frazier for sure because Frazier was as heavy as Sonny and capable of beating much better fighters. Patterson And Harris are not in Frazier’s league. "

That to me is a very obvious device to either question his power since he only KO'ed two small, soft chinned fighters as his primary displays of power .. or were you saying he was a second rate talent overall like a Ron Lyle perhaps who had power but lacked skill . What exactly did you mean by your words ? Then we can get into the other elastic statements made ..

 

That’s not what I meant. Sonny was clearly far too monstrous for guys that he was able to make look feeble by comparison to him.

But my point is, those guys might be as feeble against Frazier too.

That’s not saying Sonny isn’t as good as Frazier. That’s saying Frazier would look just as good against those guys. The point is Frazier was also as good.

He’s not getting brushed aside like those guys were because he is Listons Level...at least.

Sonny is ahead of Ron Lyle. In exactly the same way Frazier is also ahead of Ron Lyle.

My point is Frazier and Liston both represent a level above Lyle together.

The difference is Frazier paid his dues that bit more by putting it on the line at elite level that bit more. He was more prepared to fight to the finish. And ultimately beat better fighters in a better era.

no, because I am forwarding a different opinion to you I am not producing an “elastic statement”. I would like to debate these points, but it seems to me that I raise a point first and it ignites people who disagree rather than inviting debate. People are too sensitive. If you disagree, tell me why you disagree. Don’t assume I am making things up.

 

To me the question of heart comes into play. Liston was in some ways like Iron Mike, and one of them was how he really didn't like getting hit. He was monstrous...CREEPY dude when he knew he could walk through someone. And he showed heart more than once. But Frazier could be a mean, seemingly indefatigable force.

Bonavena wasn't Liston. But Oscar had him down twice in the same round and on the way to stopping him. Joe came back and decisively beat him (watch the fight). Liston...I just don't see him knocking Joe down and keeping him down. And Joe was just so good at chopping people down.

I guess the jab would be a big factor for Liston, he might keep Joe somewhat at bay...what am I saying, prime Joe Frazier was too much of a butt-ugly, mean-ass tank. He took some killer jabs from Ali (and yeah, though Ali didn't have the heavy jab of Liston, his jab was overall not far away in quality) over and over during the FOTC and kept coming.

I admire Liston's boxing, I think he was a terrific fighter. I just can't see Joe, from the Ellis win to FOTC, getting beat by him.

Just me, and I fully respect the opinions of others here, some of whom made some excellent points worth pondering.

 

Err, not to butt in, but id like to point out that many people DO tell you why they disagree all the time. People get "ignited" because you DO sometimes make things up/exaggerate and you can't just gracefully bow out when someone points out that what you wrote is inaccurate or wrong. Sone of us never get the chance to actually debate because we can't get past square 1 with you and it gets old.

 

Well I will be more conscious of it in future.

However, I still think people need to address the points I made about drawing generalisations from a fight between men at the opposite ends of their careers and applying it “rock paper scissors” style in the Frazier v Liston matchup.

For Frazier to be brushed away in his prime like Harris and Patterson were then joe needs to be a lot worse than he was in real life during his prime. Frazier is a man who beat Chuvalo, Ellis, Bonavena, Quarry And Ali on film.

 

OK .. I misunderstood you point but now I do and if not in agreement I do respect it .. I happen to love Joe Frazier .. I have studied him, I met him and had a chance to hang in his North Philly gym w him and Marvis years ago .. I think he was an exceptional warrior , an all time P4P top ten heavyweight and all the more astonishing because he fought big heavyweights as a small swarmer and had vision in one one eye for most of his career doing it so .. I'm always open to hearing people for once not underrate him here .

 

To me Joe's murder of Ellis in the first fight, coupled with FOTC, were his most stellar victories. Ellis was no joke as a boxer at the time at all, and he was there to win. Joe had a little trouble, but once he warmed up the hook....