I believe Hagler would have clearly beaten SRL in 1982; in an honest moment I suspect SRL would concede this too. SRL is an intelligent man, he knows the score.
As JT already replied: no, he doesn't say that. He says that was the point when he felt he could beat Hagler. And this was Hagler in his prime mind you. Where's the contradiction in believing someone isn't quite the same but still not shot? Can't say I see it.
In his autobiography, Leonard says that he felt an excitement at Duran's words, but that it was gone the next morning. It was an exhibition he did later that year that made him want to come back, and the plan was for a couple of tune-ups before facing a bigger challenge. "I would need a tune-up or two, at least, before taking him (Hagler) on or, for that matter, any of the bigger names." But then he felt disappointed with his lacklustre performance against Howard and decided to retire again. A decision he in hindsight felt was rash.
I personally don't see what's that strange with Leonard's behaviour. After the Hearns fight he was secure in terms of money and legacy and quite naturally felt a drop in motivation. Then came the eye surgery and that was enough for him to tip over and retire, but he still missed the spotlight and thrill of big wins. So the next 15 years would be a battle between on one hand living the comfortable life of a rich and famous man without the rigours of pro boxing at the highest level and on the other hand the longing for the attention and glory from the big fights and big achievements. There wouldn't be a clear winner in that contest until he was 40 and KO'd by someone who was way past it himself. I don't think that inner conflict is hard to understand at all.
I watched a relatively recent interview with Ray Leonard, during which he was asked if there was any fighter from his era that he didn’t get a chance to fight but wishes he had fought. I wondered if he would answer this question from the perspective of his end-to-end career and perhaps name some of the young contenders and champs that were around in the late ‘80s. Interestingly, Leonard said no and then immediately hearkened back to his first career, saying that, when he retired back then, the only person he had wanted on his resume was Hagler. Of course, he would later go on to bag the elephant. I have come to seriously consider whether Leonard was somewhat in awe of the man Marvellous Marvin; perhaps so, for some years. However, at the same time, having beaten Benitez, avenged himself against Duran and outhit the Hitman, Leonard had reached a point where he needed, more than anything, to best Hagler.
Hey, right back at you MM. He was certainly something. He just about had it all. I agree, those older bouts are fantastic viewing. I'm also prone to a rerun of the Hagler bout on occasion to tho With anything and everything not Sugar Ray Leonard i just sit there nodding my head at your posts. Always so concise and so close to my own thoughts and beliefs on so many different fighters. I think you might even work in law!!!! MM you would rate Joe Frazier's comeback above Leonard's!!!! hahaha Cheers mate, seriously. And one day i really am going to convince you that Leonard makes the Top 10 Fighters of the 80's list!!!!!!!!!
"But the fact is when it came to fruition, and the fact that Hagler didn't look the same as the Hagler who fought Tommy Hearns or whomever else, that may have been the difference." "The Mugabi fight had a bearing on my decision to fight Hagler. But it was when Duran said that, that kind of secured me in my thinking that I could beat Hagler." 2 quotes from the same interview. You want to believe Leonard didn't wait out Hagler, please continue to do so. Though, of course the Hagler Hearns fight had a bearing on Lenny's decision NOT to fight Hagler at that point. As far as your last comment, Lenny obviously knew Hagler was physically done as he saw it himself at the Mugabi fight, but he also knew Hagler was MENTALLY done as well while he was gauging Hagler at his Maryland restaurant and Hags told him so.
Correct. And here lies the tell all of the this discussion and the "timing" of when he took the Hagler fight. Ray simply states now I think I can beat Hagler …. If he was confident BEFORE this fight, he would have taken it.... It is the EXACT same reason he waited to take the Hearns fight 8 years later for these 2 to become shopworn .. These 2 had almost double the fights as Ray and he knew it
Someone still has to explain to me how this "waiting" worked. After the dismal showing against Howard, did he decide that he was obviously so far from his best that he better retire and go back to the party life and look for signs of Hagler declining? No more tune-ups, easier fights while waiting, just go back to the night clubs and hope that father time for some unknown reason would be a lot kinder to him than to Hagler? As I've said many times, that just doesn't wash for me. And as I wrote in my previous post, it's clear to me that Leonard for about 15 years couldn't really firmly decide between the hard work in the ring, with the promise of glory but also risk of damage and humiliation, or just to sit back and enjoy all the money and fame he already had. The Mugabi fight, when he thought Hagler showed some vulnerability and he suddenly felt he wanted to try what most thought just about impossible, was a moment where the scales settled for a while for the ring, but they would keep tilting back and forth until finally it was just too painfully obvious that he had absolutely nothing left to give in there. And you don't seem to have any area between prime and "done". Showing signs of decline is a far way from being done. I don't think any reasonable person took came away from the Mugabi fight feeling Hagler was done. Tyson against McBride was done, not Hagler against Mugabi. Many believed he was declining, but no one I've ever heard thought he was done. Because he wasn't. Would Leonard at that stage have beat the very best version of Hagler? Of course not, and he was smart enough to know himself that that would have been a huge challenge even at his own best, but not possible when he had been out of the ring for that long. That he felt he could beat a Hagler in decline when he himself was declined doesn't mean that it was anything but a huge challenge - it just wasn't an impossible one. But I'm just repeating myself now, so I'll stop here for this time.
You are exactly right !!!! He has no other choice to wait until Hagler had noticeably slipped and on his way to retirement. Ray waited until the 11th hour before Hagler would have been gone for good. Hagler was 2 years older than Ray and had almost twice the fights.. Since you asked for the "timing" thing to be explained ….It was exactly that … Calculated 100% by Ray when the last possible moment was to fight Hagler which was after the Hearns and Mugabi fight, after the punishment, and it turned out to be Hagler's last fight... Make sense now? You seem to be focusing on Ray's inactivity for some reason? Well let's do that... If Ray was more active and in better ring shape and thought he could have beaten Hagler THEN HE WOULD HAVE TAKEN THE FIGHT SOONER !!! BUT HE WAS NOT READY FOR HAGLER THUS HE HAD TO WAIT UNTIL HAGLER WAS SHOPWORN !!!!! MAKE SENSE NOW WITH THE CAPS??? LOL
Yes. Stop there, Bokaj. This has gone on and on and I don't think you could possibly say it any better than you did just then. Particularly the bit about father time being kinder to him than Marvin. I think we've reached an impasse now where nobody is going to change their minds. It's a tricky debate to have here as there is a lot of love for Hagler/hate for Leonard which always skews the argument. I personally don't like Leonard but this idea of him being a master manipulator and choosing the optimum conditions for himself doesn't really stand up when you think Lalonde put him on his arse, so did Hearns - twice - and let's not go into how the conditions he negotiated for the Norris and Macho fights worked out for him. My final word, and I won't be swayed on this, is that it took a massive pair to see some decline in Hagler v Mugabi, hear Marvin say he was fed up of the fight game (as I've said, he might have expected Marvin to get a psychological lift from fighting him) and think that would 'neutralise his own five years inactivity' and years of boozing and snorting and enable him to beat a naturally bigger man who was unbeaten in 11 years and who had knocked out all but one of his title challengers. I think it was Clinton who pointed out earlier in the thread that Gil Clancy noted the decline in Marvin v Mugabi. I'm sure he did. But listen to Gil at the end of the Hagler-Leonard fight. Notwithstanding the decline in Hagler, he still calls Leonard the 'miracle man'. I think he could reconcile Hagler's decline with the achievement Leonard had pulled off.
Great post. Leonard, the greatest ever assessor of a fighters peak quotient and ability to beat him somehow got it all wrong against Hearns, Norris and Camacho. But hey, he was oh so spot on that one time.
Noooo not me but i can see how i wasn't exactly clear! Don't think for a second i don't know exactly where you are coming from Edward
Hagler told Leonard at Leonard's restaurant after Lenny invited him to gauge him that he was mentally done with the sport. I don't know why that's so difficult to comprehend. And of course, after Mugabi that's when Lenny challenged him, not instead of Kevin Howard, not after the Hearns fight and even not after the Duran fight when he felt Hagler was vulnerable. But after he literally told Lenny he was had had enough and looked slow and without reflexes against Mugabi.
