[1955] Don C0ckell on Marciano's Power

Walcott did not exactly say Rocky hit harder .. he said Rocky out everything into every shot while Louis didn't .. the host of the talk show paraphrased and Walcott just nodded .. both men could obviously crush but we have film of Louis doing it to much bigger men ...

 

Not sure there is a correlation with being big and being able to take a punch. I would say Louis and Marciano were definitely different kinds of power. Louis has those picture perfect combos and Marciano just hammered you with everything he had. Both could bang for sure. Pretty sure Walcott did say “all due respect to Mr Louis Marciano hit harder” don’t know if that’s the exact quote but it’s close

 

It's blatantly obvious that Marciano had dynamite inside his gloves and carried legit one shot knockout power.

That still doesn't mean you're going to knock all your opponents out with one punch, who did Foreman or Shavers knock out with one shot?

To even debate wether Rocky was the hardest puncher of all time despite him weighing in much less than 200lb goes to show just how hard he could hit.

 

I find it rather amusing that whenever you disagree with me you claim I lied. Why not just debate my point? Just because you hit a wall you cannot accuse someone of being dishonest.

It is the truth that fighters become more conditioned to anticipating blows as they go on.

 

Can YOU do basic math? 13 > UD and 1 > 11. It's unquestionably unfair to take Louis's fastest time against Marciano's slowest

Yes he wasn't prime for the second fight but he was for the first.

Uhhhhhh, the knockout occured with one straight right to the face, that has him out for minutes. But ok. If what you say is correct than no fighter in history had 1 punch KO power

I agree with you, Walcott was past it for the second fight and decided to take the money and leave.

The Walcott that Rocky fought is equivalent to the one Louis fought, they are both the peak versions of Walcott including the '51 one that knocked out Ezzard Charles.

Diminishing returns for weight, and Marciano KO'd every 200+lbs dude he fought. I'm more impressed if you KO someone with a good chin rather than someone big. In fact most "super Heavyweights" tend to have poor chins.

Dempsey is whom I bring up for proof of diminishing returns, also I don't use the size of Dempsey's opponents to overrated him. Dempsey already has the feats on punch power on paper for anyone to see.

You didn't get my point, you can't just say "Louis KO'd Savold faster" as proof that he hits harder than Marciano without pulling the same **** on you.

Marciano KO'd Keene Simmons, a feat which not even Cleveland Williams could achieve. Marciano one punch KO'd Walcott, which not even Louis could achieve. Marciano one punch KO'd Layne, which Walcott wouldn't achieve.

I'm explaining to you that there's 2 sides of the coin for this argument and that it's pointless. Also Marciano literally had the flu and weighed in at 178ish give SOME respect. It's not an excuse it's literally Marciano fighting despite being sickly.

I'm not saying the Savold win was good, I'm saying don't compare it to Louis' win over him.

 

Don was a World class Light Heavy until a thyroid problem sent his weight spiralling out of control. The night Randy Turpin beat him he so week at the weight his Granny could have knocked him out.

 

Could have just been bravado from Don immediately post fight. He was in a very bad way and was never the same again. I read a contemporary report some years ago, on one of the anniversaries of the fight, describing how he was sick in his bucket between 2 of the rounds after Marciano hit him low.

 

Im not accepting what my eyes show me? Just how arrogant and presumptuous are you?

It isn't very hard to categories an aggressive short guy who throws a huge number of punches and sticks to close range. Ive seen several of his fights and he reminds me of various pros and amateurs who have a similar style.

I forgot im talking to the guy who ignores official tale of the tape measurements and tells everyone else they're wrong.

Marciano's opponents and a fighters of the time all called him things like "street brawler", "he simply overwhelms you with volume", "it wasn't the power it was the sheer amount of punches" and other similar quotes. But theyre all wrong according to you.

By definition, if marciano takes several rounds to put people away he was a volume puncher. The numbers show this. The opponents state this. The commentators and writers state this. The stats show that he took longer than others to stop the exact same opponent (who in many cases is an even worse/older version). The on screen footage shows a man who applies non stop pressure and tries to get his opponent to fight him at close range at all cost.

If all the facts and observation point to one conclusion, then that's the conclusion im going to accept. Your opinion is ironically the one with little basis im reality. You have not provided any facts or countered anything i have said and instead told me I was "ignoring what my eyes tell me" which by extension implies that all the sources ive provided are bs. You are insufferable.

The only one being silly is you claiming a 1 punch ko artist can throw with volume and yet take several rounds to stop an opponent!

Some fighters DO fit into some categories. I would never call Ali an inside fighter. I would never call shawn porter an outside fighter. I would never label robert guerrero a defensive fighter. Never.

Yes some fighters are hybrids but sometimes it is that simple.

Look at the opponent. A shopworn 39 year old who boxed for 23 years coming off a devastating KO loss. And he blatantly quit.

 

This thread isn't about Tommy Hearns...

 

Its unquestionably unfair to take marciano vs walcott 2 seriously.

Not as fresh as he was in the Louis fight.

Again, did the damage from rocky's accumulation of punches from the PREVIOUS 12 ROUNDS contribute nothing to the eventual knock out? Are you new to boxing or something?

How come rocky fans are literally the only ones who ever have to have this explained to them?

Ok let me entertain this for the sake of argument.

Let's say the Walcott of the louis fights and the walcott of the 1sr rocky fight are both prime and equivalent.

Rocky still took longer despite being

-younger than Louis
-being more aggressive
-throwing more
-hitting harder (according to you).

Something isn't adding up.

Stop.

There is no scientific evidence for diminishing returns.

Buddy baer's chin held up just fine for over 60 fights, Louis destroyed him and was the only man to do so.

There have been dozens of super heavies with good chins. Mariuz wach, riddick Bowe, valuev, Vitali, etc. It depends on the fighter.

That's the problem with rocky's record, he lacks both men who are over 200 lbs as well as very durable/prime fighters. By either standard his numbers are lacking.

How???

Are you saying willard being 50 lbs heavier and sevwral inches taller than 90% if his opponents DIDNT help his success?? What are these so called "diminishing" returns? He only became heavyweight champion with little amateur background relying on size and power.

Firpo was a manufactured fighter relying on sheer brawling ability and size yet he gave Dempsey hell.

Just what are you basing your ideas on? You make it sound like Dempsey stopping men 30+ lbs heavier is a bad thing! Had firpo Fulton and willard simply been bums with nobodies on their record you'd have a point. They were ranked fighters AND had size and strength, that's why its impressive.

Except I literally wasnt doing that. Savold was simply one example.

Does the fact Savold wasnt floored by rocky despite being a billion years old with a billion losses (several by ko) not raise an eyebrow to you when the comparison is made?

Layne was kod by earl walls faster than rocky.

What's the excuse now? Did his dog have the flu?

 

It’s ridiculous to not count Walcott 2. It was a good punch Walcott even said as much.
Layne has never been knocked out before Marciano and he basically stopped training after that fight (was always negligent in that department but fell off the deep end after as his record clearly shows).
Stop making excuses for being wrong in regards to Louis Walcott...you were wrong it happens.
How many fighters in the HISTORY of HW boxing knocked out men quicker then Marciano did? The answer is about 6...six men out of every Great to decent HW ever. Six. So I suppose only six men have enough power to end fights quickly everyone else was an attrition puncher right? Honestly the things written here to **** on a great champion are such stretches and absurd.

 

And he was this some of the time. At other times he was a one punch knockout artist. Whatever suited the situation.

yes, and they were correct in the instance they were referring to. I’m sure Archie Moore said it wasn’t the power but the volume. Kid Mathews and Rex Layne wouldn’t have said that.

no they are right in the instance they are talking about.

The sources you have provided do not refute the possibility that Rocky was a volume puncher when He was volume punching and a knockout puncher when he was knockout punching .

you still think Bob Satterfield towers over Ezzard Charles?

Marciano was heavy handed. When he was throwing with volume he still hurt but not like he would when he was setting up single punch knockouts. Or counter shots.

You are going to have to realise most fighters are a hybrid of styles rather than fixed generalisations called swarmer or whatever. Marciano was a counter pressure fighter too. These are just labels to help newbies understand boxing. They are not exclusive. You need to move on from this log jam.

 

He was just as hungry and athletic in the 1st marciano fight as he was in the 1st Louis fight. So yes he was plenty "fresh"

Like I said, by this logic, no heavyweight was ever a one punch knockout artist at the top level. The ko punch was the first clean full bodyweight punch Marciano landed on Walcott. Marciano broke him to the body to slow him down sure, and Marciano landed some grazing shots to the head. But in the end it was a one punch knockout.

There is plenty of evidence, just look at boxing history. In powerlifting, moving from 160 to 180lbs adds more to your total than moving from 300lbs to 400lbs, proving there's a curve for strength gain. Proportional weight wise, weighing 20% more than your opponent when you're 100lbs is less than 20% when you're 200lbs. So poise is less affected by 10lbs at 200lbs bodyweight than 100lbs. Why do you think the weight classes get closer and closer together the lower you go???

I said most SHWs are chinny not all of them. George Chuvalo, a man 205 in his prime, still has the goat chin at HW. Joe Grim was a ****ing welterweight and surviving fights against ATG punchers from mw-hw. Dudes like Marion Wilson and Don Mogard have better chins than Primo Carnera and Anthony Joshua despite being dozens of pounds less in weight. It's impressive to knock out someone iron jawed, not just bigger than you. Take it case by case.

Louis failed to knock him out in the first fight. It technically took Louis 26 rounds to knock Walcott out, compared to Marciano's 13.

Ahem

Louis is the better overall puncher than Marciano (faster hands, more accurate)

Louis had more rounds to read and learn Walcott (26).

Marciano was half blinded for the last 5 rounds against Walcott from a substance that got in his eyes.

Weak argument on your part.

Yes I'd say it was Willard's overall strength, punch power (two separate things) and chin/underrated defense that sent him to the top. Dempsey's style was tailor made for tall people though so it obviously was a detriment there.

He gave Dempsey hell because he had ****** strength and Dempsey got sloppy finishing him which allowed him to land said ****** strength.

I never said it was a bad thing dempsey took on much larger men. Big dudes have their own way you need to fight them as a smaller man that Dempsey mastered, making him better h2h against said big men than the likes of Marciano and Patterson, fellow 185lbs hw champs who'd have to beat them off pure ability and would have much greater difficulties.

Nope cause Marciano had the flu and still managed to stop him in 6.

Savold was once ranked the #1 contender so don't diss on him as some nobody.

1. Layne was a broken, broken man after the Marciano fight
2. I said only one to one punch KO not earliest ko.
3. Marciano having the flu and coming in at 178 cause he could barely ****ing eat isn't a mothe****ing excuse it's a legitimate reason and you're willingly being ignorant if you believe otherwise

You can respond to this if you want but this will be my last comment in response to you on this thread. A final tip, listen to what @Gazelle Punch says about Rocky, he knows infinitely more than you about the man (in fact he's one of if not THE most knowledgeable poster about him, even above SuzieQ49 and myself) and could teach you a thing or two about the ups and downs of his career.