[1955] Don C0ckell on Marciano's Power

I gave you the full stats if you don’t like them once again it’s on your stubborn self. Nice hand picking and you know damn well Marciano had almost zero amateur experience hence why he took awhile to develop. Turned out alright for him though. Keep yelling at the sky

 

Nah lord I can't even... ****ing hell, where do I begin?

Less Athletic?
Marciano did like everything athletic better. He hit harder, had a better chin, was faster, more durable, much better stamina, was equally explosive and accurate.

Marciano proved it at world level against several ATGs, multiple top contenders and did so consistently throughout his entire career. Butterbean on the otherhand was desperate freakshow and a circus act.

First of all, does that even describe Butterbean? Let alone Marciano.

Butterbean fought has-beens yes, but he also fought plenty of poor guys who were on his level.

Marciano fought what was available to him, what do you want him to have done? Ignore them coz they were too old? No. He fought the best at the time and sought to do nothing less. Butterbean never fought more than a 4 rounder until his final fight...

Marciano and Butterbean were both haymaker throwers, the main difference being that one threw alot more and was better at implementing the style and enforcing it on others. Oh, and it wasn't Butterbean.

No. Lol. This is without question your worst take.

Tbh comparing a fatbloke who's finest moment is an iffy KD of a 50 odd Larry Holmes to an undefeated ATG HW champion is downright disrespectful.

 

You brought their names into the discussion nobody else.It's not my fault if the stats don't work in your favour!

 

yes they were. But they still would have been knocked clean out had the same single shot landed earlier. It took a lot of effort to stay in the fight with Rocky. The exertion of fighting Marciano had meant they eventually couldn’t get at out of the way of a more executed clean punch. It wasn’t so much they were broken down because Walcott and Layne were very much still in the fight when Rocky sleeped them with the Suzy Q.

but these knockouts were spectacular all the same.

Much like Cleveland Williams, a fighter you rate as a chilling knockout artist, Rocky built a sizeable following knocking insignificant victims up into the air with early knockouts. It didn’t mean he couldn’t punch if the fighters were not as well known. But Rocky progressed to knocking out a higher standard of fighter. Cleveland never progressed. yet still you hold a candle to Williams and his one punch power even though there is no film or evidence of Williams knocking out anybody remotely decent.

This can also endorse Rockys power.

yes this has been pointed out many many times. It only counts if Rocky falls over.

 

Choklab you are an idiot.

Even janitor acknowledges the different styles and matchups/advantages in boxing.

 

“Foreman's early opposition is better than Marciano's” is an Absolutely ridiculous statement. Foreman fought 9 unrated guys in a row prior to his title shot.

Rocky beat Savold, Lastarza, Mathews, Rex Layne And #1 contender Joe Louis before challenging for the world title. Even if everyone else Rocky ever fought really were utter rubbish, Marciano beats 5 elite fighters BEFORE challenging for the world title.

Albeit among a better group, Foreman beat Chuvalo then sat on his ranking. His only pre championship elite opponent.

To match Rocky, Foreman would have had to have had to beat guys like Ali, Mac Foster , Bonavena and Quarry just to equal what Marciano went through.

Foreman’s 38th fight was indeed for the title. Where are his 37th, 35th, 34th, 29th 28th, 27th, 26th and 25th fights? why have you avoided the rest of George’s 1972 opponents? The other guys Foreman fought in 1972 were

1-14-1 Joe Goodwin
3-24-1 Clarence Boone
4-15 Terry Sorrell

When Marciano was fighting 81-3 kid Mathews in his last fight before challenging for the title, eight weeks ahead of #1 contender George Foremans "showdown" with champion Joe Frazier George was in the ring with the pathetic Terry Sorrell!

George also took on Joe Murphy Goodwin the same year who was 1-14 and unbelievably, 40 year old Clarance Boone who had won just three fights since 1957 having been knocked out an eye watering 14 times of his 26 defeats. But at least Clarence had won 3 fights...

between the gulick and frazier fights foreman fought two easy fights. the much smaller, 195lb migel paez who joe bugner had just KOd and the previously mentioned, pathetic terry sorrell who at 4-16 had been fighting since 1956 and had not won a fight in the last 12 years! What other challenger fought for the title off the back of beating a guy who had lost every fight for 12 years?

If you are showing the standard of the opponents leading up to Foreman’s title winning effort as a sign of extra quality, why are you focusing only on a bunch of fights Rocky had before he was even getting world level opponents for comparison?

Surely you should be focusing on the same point of both careers?

 

There are tactics for each style to overcome each other style. There is not one example of one style never overcoming a certain style is there?

I also acknowledge different styles and style match ups and advantages in boxing.

But that is different to ‘style advantage” which implies the advantage is always with the style itself. It is not.

The advantages are the tactics used within the style. The ability and likelihood of being able to implement them. not the style itself. Styles make fights. But style advantage is not a thing. It is a made up internet term.

 

The underlined is pure supposition.Marciano had landed punches as hard on Walcott earlier and not budged him.
One right hand in particular I have in a photo in my study,it is often mistaken for the ko punch but it isn't .
Rocky progressed to knocking out an older standard of fighter.Louis 37,Charles 33,Walcott 38,Moore 39/40.
Whose to say he would have stopped them had they been prime? Nobody has suggested Marciano could not punch against a higher calibre of opposition,what we do know is his ko victims had 117 stoppages to their names.
Williams prime was cut prematurely short by a gunshot, you cannot compare him with Marciano.
I'll say this though.Don Cokkell would not have gone 9rds with a pre gunshot Williams ,imo.

 

Show us film of Tyson, Louis,Lewis,Liston,Wlad,missing and falling over!

 

Comparable fights as requested

4th Foreman =Wepner19-4-2 Marciano = Quinn 8-0-0
8th = Davila 21-14-0 =Hardeman 1-4-0
15th = O Halloran18-5-2 =Walls 9-15-1
16th = Peralta 77-5-8 = Evans 18-7-0
18th = Woody14-5-1 = Haft 12-7-0
19th = Eastling 19-7-2 = Louthis30-13-5
22nd = Chuvalo59-15-2 = Lowry 63-49-9
24th = Kirkman 22-1-0 = Richards 24-6-5
28th = Peralta 82-6-5 = Eatman 22-20-5

 

Prime williams couldn’t beat Satterfield...a 50s journeyman

 

You’re very strange. Why would you cherry pick odd numbers to pick random fights lol. You can’t see the forest before the Trees Mcvey and you’re not understanding what I’m telling you. Marciano’s opponents (please listen closely) were below average. I agree with you. But only slightly below...slightly. This isn’t my opinion. This is fact. Most fighters great to good don’t fight all great fighters and records are deceiving especially 80s up as people became obsessed with keeping there fighters undefeated. Back in Marciano’s day having losses wasn’t a big deal it was expected and you know this. That being said listen closely please Marciano is about AVERAGE in standings in his competition only slightly below the average of quality. That means he faced just about as good as competition as the average to great fighter. This is not arguable despite your Obsession with it. Marciano’s opponents had a KO percentage of 46 percent when the average opponent of good fighters is 31 percent (or 30 o forget). So his chin was proved durable enough as well as accomplishments. Take him down some pegs all you want but history will always remember him as a great champion.

 

Walcott and Marciano both absorbed punches that would flatten a lot of fighters in their first fight. But the final blow, was absolutely the hardest blow of the whole fight. The impact was incredible. Unlike anything witnessed since Louis took out Braddock. The punch Rahman beat Lewis with was a contender.

this is absolutely correct. I know the photo. It became iconic. Walcott successfully absorbed a Bonecrushing right that distorted his face yet if you study this photo with the real one, where they are both in the process of throwing right hands, the one where Rocky has a closed eye, you can tell by the positioning that The follow through was much greater. By comparison the first one Rocky is only making impact with the end of the punch. Yet it looks less dramatic than the more famous one that isn’t the knockout right hand because the glove isnt touching that moment.

hmm. Don Cokkell was hog fat when he was obliterated by Nino Valdes But this was after after Marciano had utterly mangled him. Chances are anybody in place of Nino that time would have done just as well.

The strongest supporters of Williams all accept Nino was better than Williams. It’s not even close.

Yet the Williams comparisons made feature a result scored upon Don when he was but a shell of the fighter that the World authorities once regarded Don with Nino as having “very little between them”.

 

The folks who claim that Marciano's first KO over Old Joe Walcott was a one-puncher really must just fast-forward to the final seconds of that bout.

It's a simple war of attrition wherein the younger fighter comes out on top. Old Joe hurts Marciano in the 11th and blows his wad trying to follow up. After that, he's just walking in postholes, trying to keep his balance while his younger opponent finally gets consistent range.

 

This is so absurd ,Williams was 20 years old and a 2 day late substitute when he fought Satterfield.