My top 20 heavyweights of all time

I've just given the information I have at my disposal via bios on Marciano.If they don't jive , if in fact they directly contradict your opinion in the post in which you said you admired Marciano because he helped out,Vingo,Louis and Walcott that is hardly my fault and certainly not of any concern to me. I don't need to do detective work I have 3 biographies to refer to ,what have you got? How it works is, you make a statement,if I disagree with it I ask you to prove it.
That is because you are the one asserting something is true,therefore the burden of proof is on you, the one making said statement not me,the one challenging it, and asking for the proof of it!

If you think Vingo was a fool to believe Weill was sincere in promising to assist him that is your prerogative.
ps Marciano was not "frugal," he was a pathological miser who carried slugs to enable him to make free phone calls,who never bought a drink in living memory,who turned up for interviews and shows dressed in scruffy clothes so the producers of the shows would stump up for a decent suit for him to wear before the public.
A miser who grabbed Mickey Duff by the throat because he thought he was being short changed after a gig.[Duff had fitted him out in a new set of clothes for his paid appearance].
A miser who belted out a couple of "civilians" who were behind with payments to him when he was lone sharking.
You need to take those rose coloured glasses off and do some research before lecturing me.Mr Gullible!

 

Mine sort of changes so isn’t a set list though the top 12 is and the order doesn’t change too much.

1. Ali
2. Louis

3. Holmes
4. Marciano
5. Frazier
6. Lewis
7. Holyfield
8. Johnson
9. Liston
10. Foreman

11. Dempsey
12. Tyson

13. Wills
14. Wlad
15. Patterson
16. Walcott
17. Charles
18. Jeffries
19. Bowe
20. Norton

 

Dempsey was shot and innovative. Holmes was older, and in 6 years beat Ray Mercer.

Lol it was 2 for Tunney (Dempsey 2 & Heeney), and 3 successful for Spinks (Holmes 2, Tangstad & Cooney). Tunney also had like 5 fights at HW, so pretty much exactly the same as Spinks.

 

1. Ali
2. Holyfield
3. Lewis
4. Louis
5. Holmes
6. W. Klitschko
7. Foreman
8. Marciano
9. Frazier
10. Liston
11. Tyson
12. Charles
13. Johnson
14. V. Klitschko
15. Bowe
16. Norton
17. Schmeling
18. Tunney
19. Patterson
20. Baer

 

Carpentier was 173lbs Gibbons179lbs ,and the heaviest Greb weighed in his fights with Tunney was 171lbs.
Carpentier was unranked and Greb was unranked because when he was 171lbs for the Tunney fight,[ 1923 ,] ratings did not exist.

 

You should probably know a few things about me.

I hate paying phone companies, I don't drink (last time was New Year's Eve) and now I know remember why (wouldn't care to finance somebody else's alcoholism either) I find it overrated and destructive. Also, I find the whole suit thing laughable and kinda' cheeky on the Rock's part. If you had the same "miser" frugality as he had (growing up during the Great Depression era, when your father who you idolized was working little more than a slave job for nickels) I think you'd get vexed at the idea of somebody short changing you too. Especially when (how he and others may have saw it) you'd been made a complete fool of financially your entire boxing career. I guess he felt the need to compensate a little.

During my last few hours doing some research on Marciano, turns out I found rare footage of his later years.

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What fighter in this top 10 was knocked out in his prime by club fighters and second tier heavyweights? The one who doesn't belong there , heir Wladimir.

 

At heavyweight? Probably a combination of factors. First the Tyson loss for Spinks does a lot of damage. The fight was not competitive, In any way. Tunney doesn't have a catastrophe like that in the division. As limited as Tunney's career at heavyweight was, I think it is deeper than Spinks in terms of volume. Tunney defeated Emilio Spalla (spelling), the tough Johnny Risko, Tommy Gibbons by stoppage, Tom Heeney by stoppage, Bartley Madden a fringe player and the two decisive victories of Dempsey. who had been very inactive.
Spinks dominated a washed up Cooney who was heavily into alcohol and drugs and has two wins with a true great in Holmes. Once cleanly and once very debatable. Holmes was far more active than Dempsey so I have no problem if someone rates those as better wins but Tunney dominated the legend he fought.
So that"s it for me- more fights at heavy for Tunney, dominated the legend he fought twice, and doesn't have a total blow out loss in the division.

 

Spinks was knocked out defending his title and Tunney wasn’t. That’s one factor but not the only one.

Sure, Tunney got out of the game while the going was good. He fought no more heavyweights than Tunney did but spinks second fight with Larry was controversial.

As champion Spinks was not universally regarded the best active heavyweight in the world in the way Gene would have been in his time. When Spinks was champion there were two other men holding world championships. Certainly Spinks had the linear version but Tyson was fast being considered the best out there.

Then Spinks trashed his belt to avoid fighting Tonny Tucker then got iced by Tyson far easier than anyone Tyson fought up until then...proving spinks was always so much further away from Tyson all along.

There was none of this with Tunney. He beats Dempsey the universally accepted champion of the day. Harry Wills had even been beaten by Sharkey by then and Dempsey beat Sharkey between losing both times to Tunney. Then Tunney retires undefeated. Which puts him several places above Michael.

 

Marciano's Father worked on the last machine in a shoe factory surrounded by other poorly paid workers.Since he was the only bread winner in the family at the time, I think we can presume he was paid enough to provide for them and put food on the table.
Do you think all Pietro Marciano's fellow workers off- spring turned out to be compulsive misers? Or was it just Rocco?
You call Weill manipulative and money grubbing which he was, he was also Jewish, which you found necessary to mention as though the traits necessarily go hand in hand.
Marciano was made into a champion from the floor up by Charley Goldman,a Polish Jew whose real name was Israel Goldman.Was he money grubbing and manipulative too?
You find Weill's behaviour reprehensible,and call it money grubbing and manipulative ,but when Marciano exhibited the same behaviour you find it "laughable and kinda cheeky? Interesting.

Yes I have found out something about you ,and as one who was married to a Jewess for 25 years I find it abhorrent.
This is what I found out , you are an anti - semite .
ps In the course of your "research",did you unearth any information on Marciano's court martial for beating up and robbing two gay men in the UK during the war. Anything about his imprisonment and subsequent dishonorable discharge from the Army? You've got a lot to learn about Rocco as I said before ,"a very confused man."

 

1. Early 20th century working class Italians and Jews except in isolated cases did not put their children through university.That's one piece of BS disposed of .
2.Goldman had 137 pro fights only 40 of which were recorded ,you don't know what the **** you are talking about!
3.Marciano roomed at a boarding house paid for by Weill and his training expenses, after his first 3 fights, were picked up by Weill.
Goldman had his own small stable of fighters.
Yes you are a thorough going anti-Semite the forums very own Julius Streicher. Disgusting!

 

Thanks! I've not actually been given an in depth reason for a decision before, glad to have gotten one.

 

Some good lists, here. Well, this is my latest top 20 Heavies effort fo' dat ass:

1. Ali
2. Louis
3. Liston
4. Foreman
5. Lewis
6. Holmes
7. Tyson
8. Holyfield
9. Johnson
10. Frazier
11. Bowe
12. Dempsey
13. W Klitschko
14. V Klitschko
15. Marciano
16. Jeffries
17. Wills
18. Tunney
19. Langford
20. Walcott

 

This is upsetting

 

i.e. Tunney was hella lucky the titles weren't split and Tyson wasn't waiting in the wings.