Applegate was Marciano's 33rd fight. Henri his 32nd. Lowry his 29th. Buonvino his27th. In contrast Jones was Ali's 17th fight and he was just 20 years old Cooper his 18th fight when he was 21 years old. When Ali lost to Frazier he had 18rounds of boxing after a 3 and a half year absence from the ring . Would you like to speculate how that would have affected Rocky? How about we take him out of the game for 3 and a half years , give him 18rds of combat and then throw him in with a prime Frazier? How does he do? We never saw Ali's prime it would have been during those 3 and a half years he was denied the right to earn his living.
Yes he carried him for the TV.Lets not forget that 4 weeks earlier he had gone the distance with Norton and had already had 3 fights that year 2 with Norton and one with Bugner. You cant get up for everyone.
You don't think Marciano struggled with Charles in their first fight? You don't think he struggled when he was in danger of being stopped with a nose split in half in their second fight? You don't think he struggled with Walcott in their first fight when he was behind on the scorecards at the time of the stoppage? You don't think he was giving a bad performance against Lastarza in their second fight when he was behind on the cards at the half way stage?
IMO, Ali vs Doug Jones is one of the best fights ever between two highly skilled fighters. Ali, IMO, was close to as good as he ever was technically in this fight, he probably got a little stronger when he was older. Jones was a master fighter, just doesn't have the size, speed, and strength of Ali. I don't know who trained Jones, but the guy should be mentioned on any list of great trainers. Nice fight between two excellent fighters, one a Gold Medal winner, the other a NYC fighter who was good at all ranges. If Doug Jones had the physical talent of Ali... This content is protected
1. It was later revealed that Ali told his corner to cut the tape off of his gloves and that he was done. Across the ring a swollen and blind Joe Frazier told Futch NOT to stop the fight.. Meanwhile at ringside, a friend of Frazier's who was sitting on Ali's side of the arena heard and saw what was going on in ali's corner. He tried to signal to Futch not to stop the fight but no one saw him and it was called off... Had Futch waited another 10 seconds, Joe would have been declared the winner. 2. Agreed.. Ali's superior size, speed and other athletic gifts would see him to victory.. I don't dispute that and never have.. Do I think Ali stops him in six rounds and in one sided fashion the way that you do? Not really. I think Marciano's persistent attacks, ability to slip the jab, stamina, conditioning, power, ability to fight with two hands and heart would extend him into the later rounds and even see him landing some going punches at times. This is no knock on Ali. Eventually Rocky gets stopped or widely outpointed but I disagree that's walk in the park. 3. No.... Ali struggled with ALL kinds of fighters and at ALL stages of his career.. Not just great ones and not just when he was past it either.. I've covered this ad nauseam. 4. Rocky received good fights from men who were still great fighters despite their age or origins in other weight classes... I'll give you that Joe Louis was shot and Rocky shouldn't get many points for that win. Charles, Walcott, Moore and Lastarza were still very live opponents. 5. There are definitely some that I would pick to replicate or surpass Rocky's 49-0 record given the same set of circumstances and there are others I would not bet on doing it, BECAUSE of the same circumstances... Some of the later muscle bound freaks might not BE so muscle bound in the 50's. They'd also have to thoroughly finish their opponents as referees didn't stop fights as early. Oh and there's this thing about going 15 rounds..
And those guys had nothing in common with Ali either nor very many of his opponents.. Can we point out Ali very nearly getting knocked into 1964 by Henry Cooper, or Ken Norton arguably beating him two out of 3, or Jimmy Young getting robbed against him or how lack luster he looked against Chuck Wepner? Granted I wasn't born yesterday and I know that these were not Ali's best opponents NOR his best performances. On the night Muhammad beat George Foreman he might well have beaten anybody.. But anyone can nitpick and choose as they say fit to make a point. Rather than continuing to do that, I think I'll stick with my response in my last post about Marciano having the tools to hang in their with him and make somewhat of a fight out of it..
I think . 1. Ali came back to the corner said cut them off and Dundee ignored him end off discussion. 2.Marciano's ability to slip the jab is vastly overated , he aignored hime them for breakfast from a slow old Louis. 3.Lastarza didn't really deserve his shot 2 fights earlier he had been beaten by a lhvy journeyman and floored in the rematch 4.Charles had won 2 of his previous 4 fights.
Can we point out that Ali was 20 years old having his 17th fight when he fought Doug Jones. That he was 21 having his 18th fight when he fought Cooper. That his fights with Norton when he was mid 30's were post 3.5 years of exile. That he was 10lbs above his best weight when he fought Wepner. That he was 34 and 18lbs above his best weight when he fought Young. That the fights Marciano struggled in were against 3rd rate no hopers,whereas Ali's opponents were top ten ranked. That Marciano was having his 27th fight against Buonvino,his 29 th against Lowry,his 32nd against Henri, and his 33rd against Applegate. Just for interest Ali 27th fight Williams 28th fight Folley 32nd fight Frazier 33rd fight Ellis
That’s not really fair in regards to Charles 2. He was dominating that fight till his nose was cut off an elbow. You should be giving him credit for getting a stoppage when he needed it. Lastarza 2 Marciano didn’t look to be struggling to me. Did he win every round? No. But how many fighters win every round against great competition? I know u like poo pooing on Lastarza but he was a good fighter. He was blind for a lot of the first Walcott fight and over trained (was also probably the only fight he was nervous for)second went rather well (no he didn’t quit he got knocked out possibly misheard the count). There are no fighters without blemishes on their record. They do not exist. You also bring up fights that were said he struggled with and possibly he did but there is no videotape to see the extent of thag struggle. Ali fought the best competition ever to me there is no comparing records in that regard. Although I def laughed out loud at you thinking Marciano goes down in 6...still laughing actually.
Idk what fight you watched but Louis jab was far from slow. His right hand was almost non existent but his jab was functioning fine.
I do give him credit,that doesnt mean he wasnt in danger of losing the fight! This is struggling; Life magazine reported: "Trying to knock the challenger out with one punch, the 29-year-old Marciano was over-eager and awkward. He lunged, butted, hit below the belt, on the break and after the bell. Once, he swung so wildly that he missed and slipped clumsily to the canvas. Outboxing the champion and avoiding his blows, LaStarza managed to win four of the first six rounds." Ive never read that Marciano overtrained for the Walcott fight, where is your source?
Willis Applegate 196 11 14 2 Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence W UD 10/10 referee: Dolly Searle This was a bruising, crowd-pleasing battle. Marciano won handily enough but failed to even knock down his opponent, who had fought only twice in the previous two years. Applegate's best round was the third, which the referee also took from Marciano because of a low punch. Red landed plenty of good punches, typically in the early parts of rounds, but Marciano almost always came back later to take the play away. Marciano's best round was the sixth. The attendance was 4167 and the gross gate was $7,6l6
Art Henri 13-15-1 Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence W TKO 9/10 time: 2:51 | referee: Dolly Searle Henri frequently outfought Marciano with left hooks in the first three rounds, and landed four nifty uppercuts at close range in round three. Marciano hurt him with a two-handed attack in the fourth round and Art did not land much after that, although defending himself cleverly. The fight became one-sided and uninteresting. Marciano dropped Henri for two nine-counts in the ninth and the referee stopped it. Marciano was slow, sluggish, and cumbersome, and made one of his poorest showings. Attendance was 4386 and the gross gate was $8285. 1951-03-20 186 Harold
to search This content is protected Marciano distorts the face of Simmons Rocky Marciano 192 lbs beat Keene Simmons 201 lbs by TKO at 2:54 in round 8 of 10 Date: 1951-01-29 Location: Rhode Island Auditorium, Providence, Rhode Island, USA Referee: Sharkey Buonanno Photo #2 In his book Rocky Marciano: The Rock of His Times, Russell Sullivan wrote: "Marciano was in trouble early before winning—and not before drawing some boos from the Providence crowd for hurling a few low blows."
