There's a world of difference between the version of Roy who fought Ruiz, and the ones who fought Lebedev and Enzo Mac. You know that.
That's like saying Trevor Berbick is better than George Foreman because Berbick beat Ali and Foreman didn't.
In my mind, beating Ruiz is by no means proof that Roy would have beaten Jirov or Toney at cruiserweight. I mean Roy got knocked out soon after the Ruiz fight against Tarver and Johnson.Actually an overweight Toney did the same to Ruiz. Like I said, it is also a fact that Roy did not want the Jirov fight.
You are right there but it showed again Roy's chin. You know, prime Roy was at 168-175 rounds. I just do not see him as a dominant force at cruiserweight during the later stages of his career.
Assuming he departures for CW as same period he fought Ruiz, he'd have to fight the likes of Wayne Braithwaite, Jean Mormeck, O'neil Bell, Vassiliy Jirov & the James Toney that beat Jirov are the dudes he would've faced. I'm not sure if RJJ didn't bring his power up to LHW or maybe there were better chins? Tarver & Glencoffe took him the distance. After he went the distance with then undefeated Anthony Hanshaw- Andre Dirrell beat him & stopped him with somewhat ease. From 2003-2014 one stoppage 1 RTD. Hard to predict anything positive for RJJ post 2004. Trinidad & Lacy were his best wins IMO. I can't envision RJJ chin-checking Bell, Mormeck, Jirov. Against that version of JT, is Roy's leg healthy enough to make Toney move? Extend his arms -preventing him from the comfort zone of the ropes via countering? The ridiculous work rate of Calzaghe overwhelmed RJJ, so too is it possible Jirov workrate would be insane. In theory RJJ's talent saves him against any fighter any era. He was so gifted I would've picked a 1998-2003 version to out-reflex & potshot the whole CW...while Roy comes in at 175lbs. Past 2003-2005 he was no longer that young freak of nature age 32ish...he pretty much used his legs to run one side of the ring, then lay on the ropes. Recipe for disaster doing that against Big Truck, SuperNova or the Marksman. All 3 of these guys had something in common which was being workhorses. No superior anything, they just went about it by throwing a lot & taking a lot. Jones only chance IMO to beat these guys are @ LHW. He was that good. But once he turned 32-34, mortality set in. Supercaped Potshot hero is now reduced to Clark Kent akak Roy Jones. He can score a KO over Enzo M, but highly unlikely he cleans out the division.
Roy still looked great carrying almost 200 pounds against Ruiz. He was still exceptionally fast and athletic. He still possessed extremely good reflexes. He still possessed supreme confidence. In my opinion, the weight loss for the Tarver fight damaged him and sped up the ageing process. And that theory is supported by Mackie Shilstone, as well as the fact that Tarver, Byrd and Dawson also suffered the same fate when they burnt muscle. Roy's fights against Johnson don't even come into play here. Because the version of Roy who fought Glen Johnson could never have beaten John Ruiz. Even though the Johnson fight was only 18 months later, that version of Roy was just physically and psychologically a completely different fighter. So looking at how Roy was knocked out by Tarver and Johnson does not tell us that he couldn't have beaten the CW's of that era. Of course it goes without saying that had they have landed flush, they'd almost certainly have knocked him out. But then that pretty much applied to anyone who Roy fought all throughout his career. The perfect opportunity had to be there. I'm certain that John Ruiz could hit harder than Glen Johnson. But he never got the opportunity that he and Tarver had. Regarding a Jirov fight, no, Roy wasn't interested. Because it wasn't paying any more than what he was getting for most of his fights, and he had zero interest in winning a CW belt back then. He was solely focused on making history by winning a version of the HW title.
Most guys who got caught from a perfect shot by a 200 plus pound CW would be knocked out. But again, they'd have needed the opportunity. There were no exceptional fighters at CW back then. Stylistically, Jirov would have been one of the toughest. I think Roy's speed would have beaten Toney again.
Tramell, This is a good debate, but we really need the TS to clarify what hypotheticals we're looking at here. Are we predicting what we think would have happened if Roy had fought the era's CW's whilst being at his absolute best? Are we looking at if Roy had moved straight up to CW instead of LHW late in 96, following an exact timeline? How old is he? Who are his opponents? Personally, I'd have favoured the version of Roy who fought Ruiz over all of the CW's of that time. But realistically, following a timeline wouldn't have given you that same version of Roy each time out. He was 34 and he was starting to decline. No version of Roy from 2004 onwards would have beaten any of those CW's. He was a completely different fighter, both physically and mentally. Using the Calzaghe fight is completely irrelevant. Roy was completely washed up then and had no business being in the ring with a top level fighter. Also, Joe only had the confidence to unload that amount of volume because he knew that Roy was shot.
How many times were guys like Toney and Hopkins knocked out? How many times was Roy knocked out? There you have your answer. Roy did not have the best chin. In his prime, he was getting away with because of his amazing reflexes.
Jones picked the one fight against Ruiz he knew he could win. The he got out. He knew a knockout was coming sooner or later. I do not think he would have been a force at the higher weights (200 pounds) at the later stages of his career: less movement, less reflexes and not the best chin. Not a good formula. Roy was not weight drained for the Johnson or Tarver II fight. Still lost. However, he did win when weight drained against Tarver I.
Yes, I know. But Roy didn't get caught until 51st fight. Ruiz couldn't catch him. And neither could anybody else from 89-04. I don't get what you're point is. Roy never had the best chin, but he avoided getting knocked out for 15 years. Again, if any of those CW's would have caught him, then he'd have been toast. But I don't think they would have caught him, just like Ruiz couldn't. Although Ruiz wasn't a great fighter, he was a top 10 HW. If he'd have caught Roy clean like he did Evander, Roy would have gone. But he couldn't find him. And I'd take that version of Roy over Jirov and Toney etc.
Ruiz did not.Tarver and Johnson did.Like I said I do not buy your story that Jones was weak from weight for those fights.
He wanted to fight Evander after Ruiz, but Roy's advisor along with Don King, couldn't reach a compromise with Evander's attorney. Jirov was a tough fight for low money, and he'd been beaten by Toney. He also had zero interest in fighting Toney again after he'd beaten him so easily in 1994. But I'd have loved to have seen that, because it would have been a very different version of James. I agree with you that had he have carried on, he'd have eventually gotten knocked out had he not have changed his style to compensate for his age. Like I mentioned to Tramell, we need the TS to clarify if we're looking at a certain timeline here. Because if he'd have skipped LHW and moved to CW in 1996, he'd have been 27. And a 27 year old, 200 pound version of Roy, would have been even better than the version of Roy we saw against Ruiz. So I'd take a prime, CW version of Roy over any of those guys.
