Losing the WBO belt then would have been a blessing in disguise. But yeah, total robbery. Not to mention, Sven's style was just not very pleasing. Joe C v Ottke could have potentially been a horrendous fight to watch.
Yeah, the fight would had to have been in Britain or somewhere neutral. But Sven was never leaving Germany.
But lots of guys didn't win against elite competition. Collins didn't beat anybody elite. And he hasn't got better wins than Joe. His claim to fame was beating a faded Eubank and a washed up Benn. Toney was a better fighter than Collins, and his easy win over Tim Littles was better than anything Collins did.
1. Calzaghe--longevity, talent, raised the quality of opposition by thr end of his reign with Lacy and Kessler, the latter being one of the biggest wins in the divison 2. Ward--talent and quality of opposition. Calzaghe getting Kessler first is the tiebreaker 3. Jones--best h2h, likely best win h/o division. Rest of opp limited and time at 168 brief 4. Froch--off resume 5. Ottke--twenty defenses is never easy, half of them sucked but the other half were decent 6. Collins 7. Eubank 8. Kessler 9. Benn 10. Toney
Beating Benn and Eubank twice looks good on paper, but not in reality. The only reason he rematched Eubank is because their first fight was so close. And that was a faded version of Eubank who was never the same after the Watson tragedy. Also, Eubank was extremely lucky to have been undefeated at that point. Many people think that he lost to Benn, Close and Schommer, and he's admitted himself that he should have lost to Benn and Schommer. So Collins beating Eubank in a very close fight was no special achievement. Benn faded fast after his fight with McClellan. He lost against Malinga and then he announced his retirement. He then came back for Collins, but he twisted his ankle. And that is the only reason that a rematch was needed. If he hadn't have injured himself, it would never have warranted one. You can't even class the first fight as a legitimate win for Collins. Collins was tough and he was a warrior. But he wasn't a great fighter and his resume is poor. Tim Littles was a good fighter who beat Frankie Liles. You can't rank Collins above Joe either on talent or resume. Collins' resume: Eubank x 2 Benn x 2 Seillier Joe's resume: Eubank Reid Woodhall Brewer Mitchell Lacy Kessler I agree with you that Collins fought a better version of Eubank, but it's not enough. Beating Eubank and a half retired, faded Benn, can't match the rest of Joe's wins.
Of course it wasn't Collins' fault. But you can't even rate that first win due to the injury. You can only really rate the 2nd. And that was against a version of Benn who had nothing left in the tank, who'd already retired once after losing to Malinga. So he has one win over a faded Benn. So that was nothing special. His biggest win was against Eubank in a very close fight, which then warranted a rematch. So he has 2 wins over Eubank and 1 over a faded Benn. How is that better than Joe's wins over Eubank, Reid, Woodhall, Lacy and Kessler etc? It isn't. Collins has a very thin resume. Ward also has better wins against Kessler and Froch etc.
If you see older posts, you will notice I controversially rank Roy Jones higher than other folks do https://www.boxingforum24.com/threads/roy-jones-jr-16-0-0-0-ko-16-g-o-a-t-junior-middlweight.502678/ So will try to point out where Andre Ward beats RJ: The link above points out the first & most important reason, Roy Jones is physically Smaller Andre Ward is impossible to defeat, he always finds a way to win, Roy Jones DQ himself in his prime Andre Ward Gold vs Roy Jones Silver From a materialistic POV Roy Jones Junior was possibly the G.O.A.T at 154 reaching 16-0-0-0 (KO 16), no fighter becomes a physically better boxer moving up in weight, access to more resources & accumulated experience allows boxers to perform at a higher weight. As of H2H Roy Jones was matched perfectly above 154, luck intervened when Don King plan to turn Roy Jones into a fire-works show vs G-Man were ruined by Nigel Benn & the Effeminate Ref who aborted G-Man 1st Round KO. Don King loves matching his own fighters vs the stylistic nightmare, which seemed evil, but was excellent Promotional work. G-Man at any weight would have given Roy Jones the first KO loss, mainly because of G-Man size advantage
Ra's Al-Ghul, Yes, he was winning the first one, and if Benn hadn't have injured himself, it would have been a clean win which would never have warranted a rematch. But because of the injury, they fought again. But then you want to use it to try and enhance Collins' resume, by saying that he beat him twice. Okay, officially, he did beat him twice. But that first win shouldn't be celebrated, and Benn was finished by that point. So there is nothing special about beating a version of Benn who was at the end of road, who'd already come out of retirement after losing to Thulani Malinga. On paper, 'Benn x 2' looks more impressive than just 'Benn' The same also applies to seeing 'Eubank X 2' Out of the 3 fighters, (Joe, Collins and Ward) Collins is the one with the thinnest resume. And he's also the least talented of the 3. Regarding Lewis-Vitali, I really felt for Vitali. Because he was winning the fight and he deserved a rematch. Okay. But again, Benn was beaten by Malinga before Collins beat him, and Frederic Seillier had already been knocked out by Frankie Liles before Collins fought him. True. True. True. Collins beat a better version of Eubank. True. But he was better than a faded Benn and Frederic Seillier. And you could also argue that he was at the same level as the Eubank that Collins fought. And I would bet that most people would rate Kessler higher than the version of Eubank that Collins fought. No he didn't. Kessler and Froch were better wins for Ward, than what Seillier and Benn were for Collins. All of Joe's combined wins were also better wins than what Collins had. Okay, Joe didn't have lots of great wins, but he had more than what Collins did. Again, you can't rate Collins higher than those 2, either on resume or ability. Whilst non of them have great resumes, again, Collins has the thinnest. And Ward and Joe were just better fighters than what Collins was. You can't just rate Collins higher because he beat 2 guys who were the biggest names. Regarding Toney, in terms of ability, he was also superior to Collins.
eltirado, Roy wasn't physically smaller than Andre. Andre is 1-2 inches taller, but Roy had a bigger reach. They're practically the same size. And their size wouldn't have been a factor on the outcome of a fight. The fight would have been decided on how they'd have matched up stylistically. And the match would have favoured Roy due to his speed, power and elusiveness. Andre wasn't impossible to beat. You can't make that claim just because he was unbeaten. Were Calzaghe, Floyd and Marciano also impossible to beat? And again, he only had 32 fights. Roy was 49-1 at one point, which was far more impressive. Roy needed to either retire early or to change his unique style to compensate for his age. But he did neither and paid a heavy price. But in his prime, he was superior to Andre. Comparing Olympic gold to silver is ridiculous. Especially as the whole boxing world knows that Roy won gold in Seoul. It was one of the biggest robberies in the history of amateur boxing. Roy only weighed in twice at 154 in the pro ranks. Even if Gerald had beaten Benn, it was visibly clear that there was something wrong with Gerald. Also, Don King's involvement would have been a huge obstacle in making the fight. He always wanted future options on Roy back then, which Roy and his team would never agree too. Why would Gerald have given Roy his first KO loss? Why the certainty? Gerald would have been extremely dangerous, but Roy's speed would also have been a huge factor.
Based on the actual 168 division, not old LHWs who were best at 168lbs. #1, Andre Ward #2, Joe Calzhage #3, Roy Jones Jr #4, Carl Froch #5, Mikkel Kessler #6, Steve Collins #7, James Toney #8, Chris Eubank #9, Chong Pal Park #10, Nigel Benn
Olympics Roy Jones Jr. --- Silver Medalist --- 156 lbs Andre Ward ------ Gold Medalis ----- 178 lbs Professional Roy Jones Jr. --- 154 lbs (16-0 World Ranked Contender) Andre Ward --- 168 lbs (28-0 World Champion) Yes Roy Jones had reach over Ward & possibly can equal the range in a very clean smooth fight, except Roy Jones was fragile physically & needed the range/speed enhanced advantage to keep a safe-zone. Andre Ward will take advantage of Roy Jones physical weakness & fight like Tito|Greb for this fight, Roy Jones will get frustrated early, then KOed as he is the one with the weaker chin. Roy Jones is better off at 154 where his reach, size can save him from guys of Andre Ward size-toughness, Roy Jones is lucky he never got to mix it with Rangy G-Man like Don King was setting him up for that one, that would have been a stylistic nightmare for Roy Jones
